John Brandt's MAC-Philippines Report

[mkirda]

But once educated the issue will be clear.
In tank one is a cheap cyanide caught tang at 30 dollars and in tank two is a certified fish for 36 dollars.
Which one would you choose. You are educated.

Naesco,

I am educated enough to know that there is no way I could tell if the 'cheaper' tang was cyanide caught, and that there is no guarantee that the MAC-certified one wasn't.

MAC is not the only viable model here. There are other ways that would work, that are not predicated upon the MAC model.

Again, underlying your response are several assumptions that I am not sure have any basis in reality. Steve Robinson brought one of them up- Are consumers really willing to spend extra for fish? You seem to think so. I remain unconvinced, and I think 'the market' that you cited earlier provides enough evidence to the contrary.

Where does this leave the MAC model?

And, John, Feel free to step in here at any time...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Gentleman,
Though freedom of speech is great, it would be nice for some certified , net caught fair wage fish to go with the dialogue. Especially since the only ones available... after years and a few mil are the two little villages in Buhol that have been cited here.
Of course netcaught fish are a better value and worth more. Of course the fisherman should receive more for their work but since the exporters who paid more for ORDINARY netcaught fish have almost gone under, the issue [ and my analysis] got confused.
If all we have is smoke and no fire, its pretty pointless to continue getting excited about how much smoke has been generated. Until there is some real fire, real achievement and serious field work to go with the banter, the glorious day of fair price, clean fish will not arrive.
The national training program will be proposed and hopefully go forth in June or July. Then perhaps a year after that we can have collectors trained in enough numbers and variety of product as to not ruin consciencious dealers who support only netcaught, non mixed fish..
Currently, there are not nearly enough netcaught, certified fish to go around and that is for the simple lack of training of the current diver population. We do however have a pilot project in two villages in Buhol that produce certified mandarins, copperbands and maroon clowns.
We basically had that in 1983 when I myself trained 35 divers in that area. Hail victory!
Steve Robinson

 

[clarionreef]

Gee whiz,
Whoever did that math on those financial projections could get a job doing the books for the mob.
"Oh would that doing the right thing would bring reward!" I wish!
I deal with retailers for a living. I dare say that all you retailers out there do not. You deal with wholesalers don't you? How receptive are they? They're generally downright knee-jerk defensive on this topic aren't they?
My "research" shows that although 10% of the retailers will talk the talk if they have to, only 3% of them will walk the walk. The remaining 90% will not talk or walk.
If this thing rests upon the "awakening" of consumers to the virtues of being and behaving virtuously, then it will indeed be somewhat popular among an elite few. Especially among those retailers who have experienced a quickening on this issue by virtue of their isolation and distance from a wholesalers hub. They are the ones who 'care' the most as they are the ones who cannot 'pick' their own fish. They are dependant upon someone else picking the order for them. These guys get the most upset about the issues because they are at the mercy of the salesmen and packers in L.A ,Miami, N.Y. etc.
Retailers closer to the big fish hubs, and there are a few thousand of em, pick, cherry pick and scrutinize their selections and leave the worse fish for the out of towners. At best, the new believers will be from the mid-west, the central states and the lower citiy-fied" South.
As such, LA. N.Y. Chicago have not been hot beds of reform on these issues. I wish they were. They are not.
This trade has sectors more prone to support reason and others immune to it. The answer will not come from a mass consumer revolt that I dearly wish would happen. It will come from the awakening in governments in S.E.Asia to relize their own best interests in healthier food and income generating coral reefs. They are showing more promise and progress now then we are...finally! Environmentalists, aquarium dealers and the groups that interface between them have been slow, ineffective and resistant to their own house cleaning and reform. They need to become more pro Asia, pro villager and pro field work in order to be helpful.
Within this decade the Philippines and even Indo will become more 'born again' on the issues. Hopefully, the serious nationwide training push this year will accelerate progress. Then we can convert cyanide fisherman for their own families benefit and not just the notion of certified fish to appease the conscience of a minority amongst us
OK Thats enough!
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Hi John,

I am in Gatineau (P.Q) Canada. It is a city very close to Ottawa.
It is good to know that some collectors have found the alternative to fish bags when keeping fish at community level. It wouldn't make a difference if net trained collectors do not change their holding techniques after collection. Bad water quality in plastic bags for extended periods of time (up to a week) could be as lethal as is cyanide for properly caught fish.

Jaime

 

[John_Brandt]

Hello again Jaime,

Welcome to Wall Street. There's a seat waiting for you there, and a glass of tuba In the background is Batasan.

 

[John_Brandt]

John,

So what then is holding up the certification of the other areas mentioned in MAC's 4th Quarter 2002 newsletter? They clearly mentioned Bagac, Palauig and Coron by name, and that they were supposed to be on-line in early 2003. We are now in the second quarter of 2003, still no further certifications.
I know all three of these areas actually had resource assessments done in 2001 and all would be sustainable. All three have substantially better coral cover and fish species diversity than the areas around Tubigon. I just wonder what the holdup is.

Regards.
Mike Kirda


Mike,

Well you know what they say about "...the best laid plans..." Delays pop up, and it is the Philippines after all. I can't wait to see the MAC Certified beauties that come out of Coron! I'll keep you posted as to when these areas are approaching certification.

John Brandt

 

[John_Brandt]

I agree 100% with what you are saying. I am 100% supportive of all efforts made to put more industry money in the hands of the fishers and make sure cyanide is something in the past.

But John, you do not represent the fishers although it is obvious that we share your view.

Nor do you represent industy.

You represent us, the reefers, and what we want is cyanide free fish so that we are not wasting our money on fish that will die in our tanks.
(MASNA's goal is to educate hobbyists and promote ethical practices in the hobby.)

We reefers do not want fish sold to our fellow reefers that you know, industry knows and I know have no chance of success in our tanks.

As the representative of reefers it is your task to face both issues in our interests.

Perhaps you can encourage the 'scuba fraternity' to give the fishers some outdated equipment and educate them so that they can get the larger dollars and we get the fish you saw which they are not capable of catching now. There are other ideas to explore.
But we cannot allow industry to continue the slaughter of fish that have no chance of success in our tanks and we cannot turn the other cheek and allow it to happen .

I would like to think I am the kid in the back seat saying "Dad, Dad, please slow down, or you will run over someones pet.
Please don't be part of industy that is saying "Shut up, I'm driving!"

naesco,

I can't make heads nor tails of the first part of your message. Why wouldn't I represent the aquarium industry?

I do "...face both issues in our interest."

I don't think we can give these particular villagers scuba. They would have to go through a complete scuba certification. They would need access to properly functioning equipment, and they don't. They would need access to proper repairs and advice with ongoing maintenance, and they can't get it. I may be stepping out of my league here, but I think that setting them up with scuba might be sending them to their death. Literally. Steve Robinson, could you elaborate on this point please?

I'll make you a deal naesco. You cool your jets about the USL thing, and I'll make sure something gets done about it within my means.

John Brandt

 

[John_Brandt]

Mike wrote: Well, at the moment, MAC-certified does not equal cyanide-free.

I don't know what that is supposed to mean juxtaposed against the fact that MAC Certified fishermen don't use cyanide.


John Brandt

 

[PeterIMA]

John, I am disappointed that you could not present more facts about your trip to the Philippines.

Please answer the following questions.

1. What are the prices in pesos paid by the MAC Certified exporters to the collectors in Batasan and Clarin (municipality of Tubigon) on the Island of Bohol? Please list the prices paid by the MAC Certified exporters for each of the species being collected in Batasan.

2. How do you expect other net-collectors to become MAC-certified when the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association (PFTEA) refuses to pay more for net-caught fish than cyanide-caught fish? Lolita Ty claims that all of the fish sold by her company (Aquascapes Philippines) and all of the marine aquarium fish sold by the other member companies of the Association are net-caught. Hence, she claims that there is no need to pay more for net-caught fish. I believe that the MAC program will fail because there is no economic incentive for other net-collectors to join the MAC program. There are about 500 net-collectors who were trained by Ferdinand Cruz throught the MAC CAMP program in Palauig (NW Luzon), Coron, Busuanga (munipalities on the Isand of Busuanga), Bagac (Province of Bataan NW Luzon), and the Angbuanua on the Island of Coron who participated in the MAC programs, but are not presently certified. Why did the MAC did not certify these collectors and their collection areas? I believe the main reason is that the PFTEA refuses to pay these collectors more for their net-caught fish. The latter collectors blame the MAC for false promises about higher prices associated with MAC Certificaton.


3. Please explain why the MAC ignored the study done by ReefCheck at Batsan that found that the site was "unsustainable" and went ahead and certified the site anyway? How is it that a site that only has about 21 species of aquarium fish, has degraded coral reefs (from over 30 years of siltation, dynamite and cyanide use), about 12 species being collected, and 5 species in any kind of commecial numbers can be deemed sustainable?

4. How do you expect the MAC Certification program to work when Batasan and Clarin are only producing about 5-10 boxes of fish a week? According to Marivi Laural of Aquarium Habitat she received 4-5 boxes of fish from these sites a week. This comprises about 6% of all the net-caught fish she sells. She does obtain net-caught fish from the collectors in Palauig, Busuanga/Coron. Hence, her fish are net-caught. Guia of HD Marineworld receives about 2 boxes of fish from Batasan weekly. Lolita Ty is not presently obtaining any MAC Certified net-caught fish from Batasan(yet her company also is MAC Certified).

4. Why is it that the MAC refuses to release the CAMP documents for Batasan and Clarin? CAMPs for the other sites (where Ferdinand Cruz worked for the MAC) are available (from Ferdinand or myself). The CAMPs for Palauig, Busuanga, and the Island of Coron demonstrate high species diversity and healthy coral reefs. Yet, the MAC has not certified these sites.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

Well it is Saturday and as a wholesaler, I'm not busy.
So here it is John;
After 30 years or so we may get serious net training afterall but the notion of scuba collecting is never going to happen.. Thats a middle/upper class or tourist style way to work under water and until the fish collecting dive population joins the ranks of the the middle/upper/tourist class it'll not be practical. Interesting if it was though. Imagine the basic long range collecting boat with 6 collectors on board. Each collector uses 6 tanks a day...ie 36 per day for the boat! Any idea how much that weighs? Now we're going to be working for 5 days out in the long distance areas where the good fish still are. 5 days X 36 tanks=180 tanks! Aha...take a $3,000. bauer compressor along to fill tanks you say. On these plywood boats w/ stablizer pontons for added stability, there is little floor space and less for an unaffordable 18 hour a day tank filling operation.
Our way of doing things is not their way and if it were , the fish price structure would needless to say be extremely different! There would also have to be the mass diver certification program and the of course there the outfitting of the divers with requisite scuba safety gear, depth guages, bouyancy compensaters and dive watches.
If the guys had this kind of gear and training, they'd be looking for work in the tourist diving industry or offshore commercial dive business.
It never was cyanide that made the fish inexpensive...it was inexpensive people that did. No matter wether they use nets to collect fish, it is an overriding fact that inexpensive [ by our standard] people made the fish cheap.
They need nets and netting material. A nationwide net fund drive needs to go forth to compliment the coming net training program. Thats the best thing we can do for the 1st batch of 1,000 to be trained this year.
These divers are some of the toughest and most resiliant in the world and they are with so little.. but ...they need nets and net training along with more training in diver safety and fish handling. Thats the best thing we can do for them right now. In turn it would be a major undertaking , a great achievement and a wonderful benefit for us as well.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[naesco]

John

Its a deal!

 

[MaryHM]

Yes Naesco, just calm down, cool your jets and little old MAC will take care of everything. Please just don't cause a fuss. :roll:

 

[mkirda]

Mike wrote: Well, at the moment, MAC-certified does not equal cyanide-free.

I don't know what that is supposed to mean juxtaposed against the fact that MAC Certified fishermen don't use cyanide.


John Brandt

John,

The collectors may not use cyanide. However, once the fish are out of their hands, they lose all control.

Say an exporter gets in a load of fish from MAC-certified fishermen. Due to some element, a small percentage of those fish die. Knowing this, and knowing that there is noone looking over their shoulder, they walk over to another holding tank holding the same species, grab a 'replacement', then dump it in with the MAC batch. No one is the wiser, nor will anyone ever be. Unless that fish also happened to be caught with cyanide, and dies later...

Repeat the same scenario at the importer level. Then at the LFS level.
The entire system is easily corrupted, unfortunately. And there is no way for this to ever be uncovered using a paper trail. The only way to 'catch' it is with a viable cyanide detection test.

Seriously, John, it was a pity that you could not talk more with involved others without your MAC minders around. They would have been more frank with you. Mar and I spoke with Marivi for hours over this subject. And after a lot of thought, I do not see an easy solution for the MAC on this point without the cyanide test being in place.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

AMEN MIKE! Glad to see someone else preaching that line of reason. When I have asked MAC about this problem (repeatedly) I'm always told that the paperwork would catch it. Impossible. Just another unrealistic "solution" to a serious problem.

 

[mkirda]

AMEN MIKE! Glad to see someone else preaching that line of reason. When I have asked MAC about this problem (repeatedly) I'm always told that the paperwork would catch it. Impossible. Just another unrealistic "solution" to a serious problem.

Mary,

This is not my only problem with the standards as written. There is no verification of anything. There is nothing dealing with 'no-take' zones. The "interpretation' document watered down the existing standards to say that resource assessments do not even need to be done for the area can be certified. There are myriad other issues to choose from.

This is not to say that I am anti-MAC. I most assuredly am not. They face an uphill battle with really limited resources. However, if they are going to win, they need to be sure that the system in place is workable and not easily circumventable. They need to address these issues and put fixes in place. I want to see this happen.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Jaime Baquero]

John,

It looks very good, is a nice picture! Do you know how much cost to build a holding pen? Special attention is necessary to this level. Who is the owner of the holding pen? How is administrated? How many collectors can use one of this holding pens? What do they think about the holding pens? Does every collector have the right to use the HP?. Did you have the opportunity to go to collection sites that are not certified by MAC(most of them) and are supplying the market?
Is there any association of fishers looking for support to build a holding pen?

Economical support to help fish collectors to build holding pens in their communities would be a must to complement the net training programs.

Thanks

Jaime

 

[MaryHM]

Mike,

I agree 100% with everything you just said. Call me crazy, but shouldn't a workable, verifiable system be in place before certification of organisms is allowed?? This has been one of my biggest frustrations with MAC. Certify now, address the problems later. Of course I realize that there will always be some tweaking that needs to be done to any certification program, but come on- shouldn't things like cyanide detection be in place at least???

 

[dizzy]

People,
I agree with Jaime that the holding pen idea is a big step forward. Reducing the stress from poor handling is a huge piece of the puzzle.

 

[mkirda]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/m ... /index.htm

A month later than I had hoped it would be, but finally up...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

Mike,
I enjoyed the article a great deal. I'm beginning to have a much clearer picture of the way things really are in the Philippines, and I have to say it is much like I imagined. If the MAC can achieve the goals they have set, it will be a truly remarkable accomplishment. IMO saving the reefs and allowing these people to feed their families is a much more important goal than stopping the collection of cleaner wrasses. People really need to look at the bigger picture and stop letting their own personal agenda derail the progress.