John Brandt's MAC-Philippines Report

[mkirda]

Mike,
I enjoyed the article a great deal. I'm beginning to have a much clearer picture of the way things really are in the Philippines, and I have to say it is much like I imagined. If the MAC can achieve the goals they have set, it will be a truly remarkable accomplishment. IMO saving the reefs and allowing these people to feed their families is a much more important goal than stopping the collection of cleaner wrasses. People really need to look at the bigger picture and stop letting their own personal agenda derail the progress.

Mitch,

Actually, yes, I agree. Roger's group is actually fairly well off, at least when you compare them to the collectors in areas like Coron/Busuanga. I have yet to write up that experience yet, but hope to soon.

If I could bring it home well enough that people could understand the plight of the collectors, I guess I didn't do so bad. I just wish I was smart enough to figure out a way to actually help them in really meaningful ways.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

So tell us exactly how much the Phillippine fisherman gets in US pennies for a cleaner wrasse that is sold to unsuspecting newbies to clean the tangs of the little bit of ich on the fish? Looks so cute doesn't it?
One cent? Two?

Can't be much more if the guy brings in less than $!0.00 a week.

And no one has the balls to tell them to catch something else!

 

[dizzy]

naesco,
You should take a long hard look at the pictures of Roger's family, and then you can come back here and tell us which ones you would take food away from.

 

[mkirda]

So tell us exactly how much the Phillippine fisherman gets in US pennies for a cleaner wrasse that is sold to unsuspecting newbies to clean the tangs of the little bit of ich on the fish? Looks so cute doesn't it?
One cent? Two?

Can't be much more if the guy brings in less than $!0.00 a week.

And no one has the balls to tell them to catch something else!

Naesco,

While I understand the evident anger in your post, I would argue that it is misguided.

To answer your question, I do not know. I could probably get that information through my contacts, but, really? What good would it do? The pricing info is not really all that important to your argument.

The reason they are caught is because they are ordered by importers.
Exporters, well, good exporters anyway, all have lists of species that they will not purchase from collectors.

However, you have to understand the market: If they do not carry a wanted fish, the buyer will choose another exporter. They supply what the market wants.

That I understand this does not mean that I condone it! Really, you and I have a very similarly dim view of certain species being taken.

I would have the balls to tell them to catch something else, however, seeing the situation as it really is, I know that my very Western viewpoint is skewed, as is yours. The collectors get what is there. If they have a lot of blue face angels, then that is what they get. If they have a lot of cleaner wrasses, then that is what they get. Such is the life of a collector...

If only it were that easy.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[John_Brandt]

And no one has the balls to tell them to catch something else!

"Bust a deal, face the wheel! Bust a deal, face the wheel!" :evil:
Aunty Entity 1985

 

[Anonymous]

can someone please explain to me why any certified fish needs to cost the retail purchaser more money?

seems to me that:

a) they actually should be saving the industry side money, by virtue of reduced losses, even in the retail store end

b)the extra nickel, dime, or quarter added to the divers pay per fish should, in no way, have to translate to extra 'dollars' at the retail consumers end

c) or is this just a scheme to line mac personnel's pockets?

healthier fish means extra profits for all those involved in the supply side of the chain-why not let a share of those increased profits go directly to the divers, instead of having the hobbyists/retailers just give mac a donation for the beauraucracy? (sp?)

 

[naesco]

Come on fellas.
What do you want be to say.

That I am happy with certifed net caught cleaner wrasse.
:roll:

Gimme a break. My standards are higher than that and so should yours.

 

[clarionreef]

John,
I'd like to thank you for starting this thread and wish that it was not always diverted and subverted by lesser side issues being forced on us from the peanut gallery.
I'm going to start a new thread for the "Save the cleaner wrasse alliance".

Then maybe we can get back to business without such minor, irritating, annoying peripheral concerns ruining the critical thread before us.
Sincerely, Steve.

 

[clarionreef]

John,
I'd like to thank you for starting this thread and wish that it was not always diverted and subverted by lesser side issues being forced on us from the peanut gallery.
I'm going to start a new thread for the "Save the cleaner wrasse alliance".

Then maybe we can get back to business without such minor, irritating, annoying peripheral concerns ruining the critical thread before us.
Sincerely, Steve.

 

[naesco]

Mudslinger, not you Steve


Your comments are 100% correct IMO.
If certified cyanide free fish follow the chain from the fisher to the LFS, there has to be savings all along for the reason you indicated.
There would be low mortality and generally healthier fish which is what we as reefers demand.

The problem is not with the hobbyist who IMO is prepared tp even pay more for certified fish.
The problem is the industry(present company excluded) which demands more and more profit at the expense of the fisherman.
You need to read MKirda's article. It shows us how is actually really works.

 

[clarionreef]

Hey Mud,
Its true that more fish value is rejected and killed than the small increase that should be paid to the divers.There is no exuse to not promote and reward net collecting more. There is an explanation, but no excuse.
Cheap sugar, cheap coconuts and cheap fish! Thats what the Philippines means to many business people. That you point out that there is exploitation and unfairness in this 50 year old trade is news a half a century old. But now we have an internet freedom of expression and this fact can be shared with the whole world...and is.
Have a look people. Your fish are pretty cheap and heres why. Those that care will act accordingly and inch a step closer to heaven...the rest, well the rest we call the aquarium trade and it is historically pretty much immune to appeals to justice and reason.
The issue may be taken more seriously by more people now but there is a void in our ranks. Exporters and importers are not happy when the public finds out things such as those in Mikes article or Johns report.
They want pricing issues kept under wraps...especially the non sharing of the peso devaluation issues with the divers. Did you know that the last devaluation of the peso , if shared faily and proportionately, would've easily covered the small increase in divers prices and greatly motivated them to embrace the net training as it was offered? But no...the exporters cartel chose to keep 100% of this windfall to themselves...all the while telling MAC and co. that they were already paying too much . [Outside the cartel 3 exporters do in fact pay the divers more.]
Preaching to the choir or fighting w/ it...is pretty much what we do here. We are not even close to engaging the real demons yet. This is a hobbyist forum and it shows. I have been warned not to cause more "trouble"if I want the training to go forward. To train constructively...or to vent and rant to little aclaim??? What to do...what to do...
Sincerely, Steve
PS. Naesco...did you make a reference to lack of courage awhile back?
Really?

 

[John_Brandt]

naesco, you broke our deal about cooling your jets when it comes to the unsuitables.

You went and said that one lacks balls (slang for testicles, but also used to suggest bravery) when one does not tell a fisher that he is catching an unsuitable, and you went as far as to suggest that that said person ought to do something about it right away by telling them to catch something else.

You are guilty of breaking the deal not because it would be wrong to have a fisher make a switcheroo with two species, but because you called the person who would not do this a person without bravery. naesco, without a plan in place to actually allow the fisher to pull it off, you might actually create a problem for him. Since nobody wants to create a problem for the fisher it's risky to just wing it. There is also a need to establish whether the newly-desired species has a market waiting for it. When I mentioned H. melanurus I did so because it's a gorgeous potentially reef-safe fish that thrives in captivity. They are not collecting that fish at Batasan. I'd like to swap that fish for cleaner wrasses. Additionally, the new choice is a premium priced fish. Cleaner wrasses might retail for $15 here in the USA. The neon-stripe wrasse could be sold for $50 at retail. That ought to be a fish that the fisher is paid considerably more for. So you see it isn't bravery that's necessary, it's a plan. Hence, you are guilty of breaking the deal by implying that I had no balls. That is an engagement of the afterburners, not a cooling of the jets.

Naesco, you must face the wheel. :twisted:

The wheel is a randomized way of determining your punishment. We will use a single die (yes, one half of a pair of dice) roll to determine your fate. Six different fates await you. I will pick the first one. And the next 5 entries by any posters shall become the balance of the die. After the fates have been entered we will roll the die.

Die Face #1 is: Thunderdome

Who shall decide naesco's next possible fate?

 

[naesco]

I already faced the wheel.
It was the wrath of the 'Pope".

 

[John_Brandt]

In most cases some things have to be in place, before others can occur.
{snip}
When things begin to fall into place, like an escalation of supply and demand for MAC Certified, then these other things will rapidly be implemented. We are on a road to success, but we aren't there quite yet. You represent the kid in the backseat hollering out, "Are we there yet, Dad?"

John,

So what then is holding up the certification of the other areas mentioned in MAC's 4th Quarter 2002 newsletter? They clearly mentioned Bagac, Palauig and Coron by name, and that they were supposed to be on-line in early 2003. We are now in the second quarter of 2003, still no further certifications.
I know all three of these areas actually had resource assessments done in 2001 and all would be sustainable. All three have substantially better coral cover and fish species diversity than the areas around Tubigon. I just wonder what the holdup is.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike,

Sorry I couldn't respond properly to this question earlier. I wanted to get the most recent info available on their status, and I have.

The readiness for MAC certification of a collection area depends on a myriad of issues one of which is the "sustainability" of the collection area.

Other issues such as bad weather can also dramatically slow down things. Palauig, Zambales and Bagac, Bataan are areas that will probably also be used as templates for the whole of that coastline so they have to get it right. Peter Scott is currently working closely with Ferdinand Cruz to ensure that these areas will be a good template. The collectors from these areas are delivering good fish to Manila already. These deliveries are being monitored by MAC Staff. Fine tuning is still taking place but we hope for certification soon.

As to Coron, there have been changes in collectors coordinators and bad weather in these areas. Some of the collectors are also finding difficulty in maintaining the quality of the fish they collect and being consistent in their collection and packing practices.

Just training someone to use a net is only about 5% of the work that has to be done. Some areas in the Philippines can pick things up quickly, others will take much more time. But there is obviously a forward progression towards the depth of variety in species that the MAC needs to develop the market demand.

MAC is trying to develop a long term relationship with these collection communities rather than the "train them and run" philosophy of the past. This short-termism has only lead to what Ferdinand accurately terms as "backsliding".

If the current recent progress is maintained we could have at least 4 more collection areas certified by July 1, 2003.

John Brandt

 

[dizzy]

John,
I think naesco should be sent to the Philippines and forced to eat Naso tang. I have a feeling he would come back with a little more sympathy for the plight of the fishers.

 

[John_Brandt]

I already faced the wheel.
It was the wrath of the 'Pope".

Ooooooooohhhhhhhh no. That is quite a prolonged punishment as well. The Pope moves at the speed of cold molasses.

There are no limits to the number of times one may face the wheel naesco.

Next fate please.......

 

[John_Brandt]

John,
I think naesco should be sent to the Philippines and forced to eat Naso tang. I have a feeling he would come back with a little more sympathy for the plight of the fishers.

Hey Mitch, you know I never had a chance to eat any tangs there. But I did eat a big old tusk wrasse for lunch right before the ceremony. It was Choerodon anchorago, about 10 inches long. Delicious white meat, like elegantly broiled catfish. They cook everything whole, so the head was there. It had a set of teeth like a Chihuahua.

Caulerpa racemosa salad topped with nudibranch egg garnish is damn good too.

San Miguel beer (an excellent Philippine lager) is mandatory for lunch and dinner at 40 cents a bottle.

Book your flight and go visit the MAC Certified fishermen Mitch!

John Brandt

 

[mkirda]

Gimme a break. My standards are higher than that and so should yours.

Naesco,

Thank you. You have taught me one thing about writing.
That despite your best efforts, there are people whom you cannot reach.
Not for lack of trying, but because of different experiences.

A cleaner wrasse might net a fisherman 50 cents US. That 50 cents is the difference between being able to put chicken into the pot of rice versus having just rice that day.

Am I against them catching cleaner wrasse? Yes, absolutely. Can I tell them, with my nice middle-aged love handles, that "Hey, you! Mr. Fisherman... You shouldn't catch that fish, and trade the money for a chicken to feed your family tonight because that fish won't live in our tanks." Could I be that heartless to tell their children that? Honestly, no, I could not. Where you see the world, Naesco, as all black and white, I see as lots of shades of gray...

My standards also include that all children should get fed enough to eat so that they do not go to sleep hungry. And you know what? If they have to sacrifice a few cleaner wrasse (which are NOT an endangered species) in order to do it, then do it.

I will still say that the importers here in the US are the ones to blame for ordering them in the first place. They stop ordering them, the fishermen will stop collecting them because the exporters won't want them.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

Alright already, I was wrong and I apologize.
My comments were below the belt so to speak.
I understand that you both were guests of the Phillippine people who are the friendliest most hospitable people in the world.
It would have been very rude to make any comments to them or criticize them.
However, I feel that species on the USL should be restricted and that that should be part of their and educating of the fishers.

 

[mkirda]

However, I feel that species on the USL should be restricted and that that should be part of their and educating of the fishers.

I think it will be, just in a second phase.
And, honestly, I can live with that. I don't like it, but I can live with that.

Please see the thread Steve opened up for you for another take on the USL.

And no hard feelings on my end.
Regards.
Mike Kirda