John Brandt's MAC-Philippines Report

[John_Brandt]

Yum!

Caulerpa racemosa at the Manila seafood market. Marine algae is used to make salad. A basket contains a red macroalgae and another contains clams. If you want to make a purchase you'll need to wake the vendor. She's sleeping on the bench at the rear of her market stall.

 

[John_Brandt]

John,
I think naesco should be sent to the Philippines and forced to eat Naso tang. I have a feeling he would come back with a little more sympathy for the plight of the fishers.

Good one Mitch :twisted:

So we now have two out of six punishments:

Die #1: Thunderdome. Two men enter one man leaves.
Die #2: Eat Naso Tang, with a side order of hot sand.

I will now pick the third punishment:

Die #3: Moderator's Choice. Anything I want.

Just for your information naesco, this Batasan Island Beach Crew here is going to make sure you carry out your punishment. They are small but they are very tough. The low ones will bite. Now, don't try anything funny naesco, like try to escape because they will swarm you right away. The child in blue is signaling "2", this means that the Naso Tang and hot sand are ready to eat should that number come up.

 

[John_Brandt]

Well it is Saturday and as a wholesaler, I'm not busy.
So here it is John;
After 30 years or so we may get serious net training afterall but the notion of scuba collecting is never going to happen.. Thats a middle/upper class or tourist style way to work under water and until the fish collecting dive population joins the ranks of the the middle/upper/tourist class it'll not be practical. Interesting if it was though. Imagine the basic long range collecting boat with 6 collectors on board. Each collector uses 6 tanks a day...ie 36 per day for the boat! Any idea how much that weighs? Now we're going to be working for 5 days out in the long distance areas where the good fish still are. 5 days X 36 tanks=180 tanks! Aha...take a $3,000. bauer compressor along to fill tanks you say. On these plywood boats w/ stablizer pontons for added stability, there is little floor space and less for an unaffordable 18 hour a day tank filling operation.
Our way of doing things is not their way and if it were , the fish price structure would needless to say be extremely different! There would also have to be the mass diver certification program and the of course there the outfitting of the divers with requisite scuba safety gear, depth guages, bouyancy compensaters and dive watches.
If the guys had this kind of gear and training, they'd be looking for work in the tourist diving industry or offshore commercial dive business.
It never was cyanide that made the fish inexpensive...it was inexpensive people that did. No matter wether they use nets to collect fish, it is an overriding fact that inexpensive [ by our standard] people made the fish cheap.
They need nets and netting material. A nationwide net fund drive needs to go forth to compliment the coming net training program. Thats the best thing we can do for the 1st batch of 1,000 to be trained this year.
These divers are some of the toughest and most resiliant in the world and they are with so little.. but ...they need nets and net training along with more training in diver safety and fish handling. Thats the best thing we can do for them right now. In turn it would be a major undertaking , a great achievement and a wonderful benefit for us as well.
Sincerely, Steve

Thank you for your explanation. Your experience, knowledge and insights on net training are invaluable on this forum. You give us a front row seat.


John Brandt

 

[naesco]

Please, please I will be good from now on.

Just don't make me eat the caulerpa racemosa!

 

[John_Brandt]

John,

It looks very good, is a nice picture! Do you know how much cost to build a holding pen? Special attention is necessary to this level. Who is the owner of the holding pen? How is administrated? How many collectors can use one of this holding pens? What do they think about the holding pens? Does every collector have the right to use the HP?. Did you have the opportunity to go to collection sites that are not certified by MAC(most of them) and are supplying the market?
Is there any association of fishers looking for support to build a holding pen?

Economical support to help fish collectors to build holding pens in their communities would be a must to complement the net training programs.

Thanks

Jaime

Jaime,

The materials are simply a range of bamboo stalk sizes, lashings, heavy-duty netting and an anchorage system that can accommodate tides and waves. It can certainly be relocated as needed. Costs will vary depending on local availability of materials. The collectors association owns the pen and their coordinator administers it. They are built to accommodate the needs of the collectors association, with anywhere up to about 60 members. All of the collectors in the association get to use the pen. They do like it because it protects their catch and ensures the ability to meet the MAC Standards, especially concerning low mortality limits. Building the holding pen, along with nets and such are part of the training program.

Establishing a sponsorship of a "Wall Street" would be a very helpful contribution by organizations or individuals to the benefit of the collectors association.

I did not have an opportunity to visit any collecting sites that were not MAC Certified, other than a few areas not far from Batasan Island.




John Brandt

 

[Jaime Baquero]

This sounds as an interesting project and a concrete contribution to help solving one of the causes of unnecessary mortality to community level. Could you please find out with Paul to see how can we develop a project proposal to implement the holding pens technique in communities working with MAC?

Thanks

Jaime Baquero
Ocean Voice International

 

[mkirda]

This sounds as an interesting project and a concrete contribution to help solving one of the causes of unnecessary mortality to community level. Could you please find out with Paul to see how can we develop a project proposal to implement the holding pens technique in communities working with MAC?

Thanks

Jaime Baquero
Ocean Voice International

Why limit it to MAC? Any net-caught fisher-community should be targeted.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[horge]

Please, please I will be good from now on.

Just don't make me eat the caulerpa racemosa!

Naesco...
Masarap naman ang "lato", a.
Kapwa tao mo rin ang mga Pilipino, at hindi kakain ng maski ano, 'di ba?


Tungkol naman sa mga na-banggit ng iba:
Matagal nang ginagamit ang mga baclad dito sa amin, kaya ilan sa mga dapat ninyong tanungin tungkol diyan sa mga lintik na "holding pens" ninyo ay ang mga mangingisdang Pilipino mismo. Sa tingin ko, wala kayong kaalam alam tungkol sa timpla ng panahon sa loob ng isang taon, at ang nagagawa nito sa pag-wasak ng mga baclad. Nawawasak ang mga iyan dahil sa malakas na alon. Kung ito ay magagawang 'modular', tulad ng mga 'modular fish cages' na ginagamit sa Pangasinan, La Union at Quezon, siguro ay maili-likas ang mga ito bago dumating ang masamang panahon. Hindi naman sila gagamitin sa mga buwan na iyon.

Ang maliit na baclad, mga 2m x 4m, na merong 8-12 "modular fish cages" ay umaabot ng P11,000 hanggang P40,000, depende sa lalim ng tubig at (siyempre) sa presyo ng materyales (at layo) sa bayan.

Kung lumaganap ang pag-gamit ng baclad sa paghuli ng mga "ornamental fishes".... ang mga dapat pag-isipan ay una, kapag inimbak ang mga isda sa isang baclad, baka magkainan sila ng isa't isa. Dapat maituro sa mga collector na baguhan kung anu-anong isda ang maaring ipag-sama. Malamang ang mga veteranong collecor ay alam na ang tungkol dito.

Pangalawa, kung mamalasin at ang mga isda ay nahuli sa pamamagitan ng sodyum (o "sodium cyanide"), mawawala lahat ng ebidensya dahil mai-ihi lang ng isda ang lahat ng bakas ng sodyum sa loob ng isa o dalawang araw ng pananatili sa baclad. Mapapawalang-kahulugan ang pinagpipilitang panunuri ng isda laban sa sodyum (CDT) na gustong ipatupad ng MAC at ng BFAR, kung hindi ito gagawing sa bawa't paglagay ng isda sa baclad.






Hihingi ako ng pahintulot sa Foro na ito, dahil nakapag-paalam na ako dati.
Kaso, nila-lait ni naesco ang isa sa paborito kong merienda
Konti na lang, at parang nilait na rin niya ang pang-lasa ng mga Pilipino.
Hindi ko matiis na hindi sagutin ito.
(Parang dati, hindi ko matiis na hindi sagutin ang mga maling-mali na sinasabi ni Kalkbreath...hayayay...)

Sinasabi ko sa iyo, subukan mo man lang muna, naesco.
Budburan mo ng asin, Italian Dressing, o suka.
Sabayan mo ng malamig na San Miguel, at okay ka na.


Horge Cortes Jorge Jr.
Maynila,
Republika ng Pilipinas

 

[Anonymous]

Horge,

You're back! Um, uh, but could you translate for a poor fellow that is still working on English as a first language?

Your #1 fan,
-Lee

 

[John_Brandt]

John, I am disappointed that you could not present more facts about your trip to the Philippines.

Please answer the following questions.

1. What are the prices in pesos paid by the MAC Certified exporters to the collectors in Batasan and Clarin (municipality of Tubigon) on the Island of Bohol? Please list the prices paid by the MAC Certified exporters for each of the species being collected in Batasan.

2. How do you expect other net-collectors to become MAC-certified when the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association (PFTEA) refuses to pay more for net-caught fish than cyanide-caught fish? Lolita Ty claims that all of the fish sold by her company (Aquascapes Philippines) and all of the marine aquarium fish sold by the other member companies of the Association are net-caught. Hence, she claims that there is no need to pay more for net-caught fish. I believe that the MAC program will fail because there is no economic incentive for other net-collectors to join the MAC program. There are about 500 net-collectors who were trained by Ferdinand Cruz throught the MAC CAMP program in Palauig (NW Luzon), Coron, Busuanga (munipalities on the Isand of Busuanga), Bagac (Province of Bataan NW Luzon), and the Angbuanua on the Island of Coron who participated in the MAC programs, but are not presently certified. Why did the MAC did not certify these collectors and their collection areas? I believe the main reason is that the PFTEA refuses to pay these collectors more for their net-caught fish. The latter collectors blame the MAC for false promises about higher prices associated with MAC Certificaton.


3. Please explain why the MAC ignored the study done by ReefCheck at Batsan that found that the site was "unsustainable" and went ahead and certified the site anyway? How is it that a site that only has about 21 species of aquarium fish, has degraded coral reefs (from over 30 years of siltation, dynamite and cyanide use), about 12 species being collected, and 5 species in any kind of commecial numbers can be deemed sustainable?

4. How do you expect the MAC Certification program to work when Batasan and Clarin are only producing about 5-10 boxes of fish a week? According to Marivi Laural of Aquarium Habitat she received 4-5 boxes of fish from these sites a week. This comprises about 6% of all the net-caught fish she sells. She does obtain net-caught fish from the collectors in Palauig, Busuanga/Coron. Hence, her fish are net-caught. Guia of HD Marineworld receives about 2 boxes of fish from Batasan weekly. Lolita Ty is not presently obtaining any MAC Certified net-caught fish from Batasan(yet her company also is MAC Certified).

4. Why is it that the MAC refuses to release the CAMP documents for Batasan and Clarin? CAMPs for the other sites (where Ferdinand Cruz worked for the MAC) are available (from Ferdinand or myself). The CAMPs for Palauig, Busuanga, and the Island of Coron demonstrate high species diversity and healthy coral reefs. Yet, the MAC has not certified these sites.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec

Peter,

I'm sorry for the delay in responding. I'm still wearing my training wheels as moderator, but I've got a flat on the left side now on account of everbody kicking at it.

I'm also sorry you were disappointed with my report. It wasn't written for reefs.org's audience. Variations of it will be published in international trade magazines. It was written for a more general audience, without specific knowledge to the idiosyncrasies of the Philippine Marine Ornamental Trade. But the facts are there Peter. I was objective and unbiased; while in the Philippines I was allowed to ask any questions, look at anything and basically wander about. MAC open-ended my stay, meaning that I could have stayed about as long as I wanted. In fact I would have stayed 20 days if I didn't have to return for the USCRTF meeting. My expertise is in transportation, holding and husbandry of marine animals, with an emphasis on longevity in captivity. I was quite critical in my observations of holding and transporting, and paid close attention to the life support systems at the exporters. I found all sorts of things that could be improved, but nothing major. I talked Peter, Lino, Mike, Paul, Sylvia and David's ears off about what I saw. The same would be true at our board of directors meeting at World Wildlife Fund Headquarters. The MAC is making progress. There will soon be a greater variety of MAC Certified animals available to create a growing demand. Additional MAC Certified retailers will be coming on to supply the market.

So I will attempt to answer your questions in the order you gave them.

1) What are the prices in pesos paid by the MAC Certified exporters to the collectors in Batasan and Clarin (municipality of Tubigon) on the Island of Bohol? Please list the prices paid by the MAC Certified exporters for each of the species being collected in Batasan.

MAC Certified exporters and Certified collectors met earlier this year in an historic meeting and agreed in writing to a minimum price for species coming from Batasan and Bohol. These prices are on average 10% more than their normal prices. Don't forget though, the price of the animal is only part of the equation. For MAC Certified collectors, the exporters also cover part of the freight costs to Manila, donate the plastic jars and nets, and pay an administration fee to the collectors coordinators. These incentives are not given to non-MAC collectors. But seriously Peter, it wouldn't be proper to post actual prices paid by exporters right here on the World Wide Web.

2) How do you expect other net-collectors to become MAC-certified when the Philippine Tropical Fish Exporters Association (PFTEA) refuses to pay more for net-caught fish than cyanide-caught fish? Lolita Ty claims that all of the fish sold by her company (Aquascapes Philippines) and all of the marine aquarium fish sold by the other member companies of the Association are net-caught. Hence, she claims that there is no need to pay more for net-caught fish.

Aquascapes Philippines was party to the agreement as described above and now pays the same as the other exporters.

I believe that the MAC program will fail because there is no economic incentive for other net-collectors to join the MAC program. There are about 500 net-collectors who were trained by Ferdinand Cruz throught the MAC CAMP program in Palauig (NW Luzon), Coron, Busuanga (munipalities on the Isand of Busuanga), Bagac (Province of Bataan NW Luzon), and the Angbuanua on the Island of Coron who participated in the MAC programs, but are not presently certified. Why did the MAC did not certify these collectors and their collection areas?

Firstly, MAC does not certify anything. Certification is undertaken by independent third party certifiers. The readiness for MAC certification of a collection area depends on a myriad of issues, one of which is the training of the collectors. Other issues such as bad weather can also dramatically slow things down. Palauig, Zambales and Bagac, Bataan are areas that will probably also be used as templates for the whole of that coastline, so they have to get it right. Peter Scott is currently working closely with Ferdinand Cruz to ensure that these areas will be a good template.

The collectors from these areas are delivering good animals to Manila already. These deliveries are being monitored by MAC Staff. Fine tuning is still taking place but they hope for the certification soon.

At Coron there have been changes in collector's coordinators and bad weather in these areas. Some of the collectors are also finding difficulty in maintaining the quality of the organisms they collect and being consistent in their collection and packing practices.

Just training someone to use a net is only 5% of the work that has to be done. Some areas in the Philippines can pick things up quickly, others will take much more time.

MAC is trying to develop a long term relationship with these collection communities rather than the "train them and run" philosophy of the past. This short termism has only lead to what Ferdinand accurately terms as "backsliding".


I believe the main reason is that the PFTEA refuses to pay these collectors more for their net-caught fish. The latter collectors blame the MAC for false promises about higher prices associated with MAC Certificaton.

As certification advances some of this misinformation disappears. See also my answer to #1.

3) Please explain why the MAC ignored the study done by ReefCheck at Batsan that found that the site was "unsustainable" and went ahead and certified the site anyway? How is it that a site that only has about 21 species of aquarium fish, has degraded coral reefs (from over 30 years of siltation, dynamite and cyanide use), about 12 species being collected, and 5 species in any kind of commecial numbers can be deemed sustainable?

I don't know where your information is coming from. It was certainly not in the report made to the Batasan and Clarin CAMP Committees by ReefCheck recently when the CAMP Committee reviewed their resources.

Peter, please clarify who at Reefcheck this information comes from.

4) How do you expect the MAC Certification program to work when Batasan and Clarin are only producing about 5-10 boxes of fish a week? According to Marivi Laural of Aquarium Habitat she received 4-5 boxes of fish from these sites a week. This comprises about 6% of all the net-caught fish she sells. She does obtain net-caught fish from the collectors in Palauig, Busuanga/Coron. Hence, her fish are net-caught. Guia of HD Marineworld receives about 2 boxes of fish from Batasan weekly. Lolita Ty is not presently obtaining any MAC Certified net-caught fish from Batasan(yet her company also is MAC Certified).

The decision to become certified rests with the Collectors Association and CAMP Committee. MAC does not put undue pressure on anyone to become certified. Nevertheless, I gather from the work in hand, that the volume of MAC Certified fish should significantly increase over the next 12 months.

5) Why is it that the MAC refuses to release the CAMP documents for Batasan and Clarin? CAMPs for the other sites (where Ferdinand Cruz worked for the MAC) are available (from Ferdinand or myself). The CAMPs for Palauig, Busuanga, and the Island of Coron demonstrate high species diversity and healthy coral reefs. Yet, the MAC has not certified these sites.

This is simple. The CAMP documents are not the property of MAC and MAC has no say on their distribution. I would suggest that you ask the Chairman of the Clarin and Batasan CAMP Committees for copies if you want them.


John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[mkirda]

This is simple. The CAMP documents are not the property of MAC and MAC has no say on their distribution. I would suggest that you ask the Chairman of the Clarin and Batasan CAMP Committees for copies if you want them.

Not so simple, John...

The CAMPs have the names of those chairmen. MAC sure doesn't advertise them. That is part of the 'proprietary information', as they call it.

I tried going that route. What I got were insurmountable roadblocks. As did you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

John,

I noticed that it took you a few days to respond to Peter's original question. The skeptic in me (you know, that part that composes about 98% of my soul!!) says that this is because you ran these questions by someone else first- possibly Paul. If this is the case, now or in the future, could you please let us know? Just say "Paul says" or "so and so" says. Helps us to understand where the information is coming from.

 

[mkirda]

Naesco...
Masarap naman ang "lato", a.
Kapwa tao mo rin ang mga Pilipino, at hindi kakain ng maski ano, 'di ba?

---Naesco....
"lato" is also delicious a... We filipinos are all brothers, and we just don't eat anything, right?
---- About what other people said: We are using holding pens for a long time now, and the right people to ask about those damn holding pens are our local Filipino fishermen. In my belief, you do not know anything about the changes of season here and what it contributes to the destruction of the pens. They get destroyed by strong currents. If we can make it 'modular', just like the modular fish cages that are used in pangasinan, la union and quezon, we can take them to shore before the currents get strong. We dont need to use it anyway during those months.

---A small holding pen, about 2m x 4m and 8-12" modular fish cage, costs about 11,000 pesos to 40,000 pesos, ($200 to $770 US Dollars based on exchange rate of P52=1USD) depending on the depth of the water [where we put it in] and (of course) the price of the materials (and how far it is) in the town. Holding pens are becoming popular for catching ornamental fish, but we have to keep in mind the following... first, there is a possibility that they will eat one another. It is important to teach first time collectors on the type of fish that could be put together in one pen. I do think that veteran collectors already know this knowledge.

---- Second, if luck were against us and people catch fish using sodium cyanide, all the evidence will be lost because the fish will excrete all the chemical in just one or two days when placed in the pen. The efforts of MAC and BFAR in testing fish for cyanide will be put to waste, if we dont test the fish before they are placed in pens.

----I am asking pardon in this forum, as i have done before. But naesco is degrading one of my favorite meriendas. Just a little more, and it will be like degrading the taste of all Filipinos. I cannot resist answering back. (Just like before, when i cannot resist answering back on the false statements given by Kalkbreath... hayayay)

----I am telling you, try it first naesco. Try sprinkling it with salt, italian dressing or vinegar. Then eat it with a nice cold bottle of san miguel beer... and everything will be okay....
Horge Cortes Jorge Jr.

----translation: Ronald M Angeles

 

[clarionreef]

Horje,
Thanks for your contributions again. You're right about the holding pens of course. The wind and weather can wreck em and then they need to be sun dried periodically as to keep the algae down. Algae that feeds some fishes and causes ammonia trouble when shipping.
I saw holding pens made of cheap, sturdy bamboo back in '81 in Bolinao, Pangasinan. The bamboo ones were a lot cheaper. Especially if someones uncle had a bunch growing on his property. They were also in Buhol and Cebu. I learned from the Filipino divers how to make em and smuggled the idea back to Mexico where I have used them ever since.
I learned a lot from Filipino divers and hope to learn a lot more.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Hey! .......Horge!... I was trying to keep my name out of this thread...... :wink:
_________________
chocolate chunk seeds

 

[PeterIMA]

Mike, Statements about all the cyanide being lost from the fish if they are held in a holding pen for a few days are false, irrespective of what you, Horge, or some collectors may believe. The IMA was able to detect cyanide 2-3 weeks after the fish were collected. I have a Cyande Detection Test (CDT) database with over 48,000 tests that prove this.

Perhaps the misconception occurred because BFAR/IMA created an artificial concentration value (0.2 mg/kg) for cyanide ion. Concentrations equal to or above this level detected by the testing procedure were scored Positive. Concentrations of cyanide ranging from 0 to <0.20 mg/kg were scored Negative. Hence, many fish tested with cyanide levels below this level were scored Negative, when cyanide was found to be present. This was done to give the collectors a break. BFAR and the Philippine government did not want to prosecute every collector in the country. Only tests above 0.2 mg/kg were used to prosecute collectors. Actually, any concentration of cyanide "Present" was proof that the fish were collected by an anthropogenic agent that was absent from the marine environment (e.g., cyanide). Hence, the six BFAR/IMA laboratories were able to routinely detect cyanide in both marine aquarium fish and food fish as my recent paper just published in the book Marine Ornamental Species, Collection, Culture, and Conservation amply demonstrates. The cyanide concentrations determined are in the CDT database, along with the derived Positive/Negative Scores. Unfortunately, the CDT Certificates issued by the CDT laboratories only presented the Positive or Negative Score. This created the false impression that fish with Negative Scores did not have cyanide, when in fact with many tests cyanide was detected. My recent paper presented cyanide testing results as Present (>0 mg/kg) or Absent (0 mg/kg). Cyanide was found to be Present with 25% of the aquarium fishes tested and 44% of the food fish tested from 1993 to 2000.

Peter Rubec
International Marinelife Alliance

 

[mkirda]

Mike, Statements about all the cyanide being lost from the fish if they are held in a holding pen for a few days are false, irrespective of what you, Horge, or some collectors may believe.

Peter,

I only cut and pasted the translation. I didn't add any comments...

However, using the current test, Horge is probably correct.
Using the previous testing method (IMA's), I will defer to your expertise.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

I just realized I should have added something to Horge's translation...

Merienda is what we would call a 'snack', something you eat between meals.
Filipinos love their meriendas, and often eat five or six times total during the day.

Horge apparently loves Calerpa, and recommends it as a snack, chiding Naesco for making comments about it. Never tried it (never seen it in Manila), so I cannot say anything about it...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Mike and Peter,
And if you really want to know what testing really could reveal...it would not be watered down in the future by testing irrelevant and not caught w/ cyanide species ie. squareblock anthias, firefish,ocellaris ,clownfish, mandarins etc. It would futhermore never, ever be run based on fish that the exporter wants to offer or volunteers. The exporter knows far better than the testers which fish are 'safe' and which fish are not.
Stick to all the angel species, the blue tangs and the clown triggers if you want to see a positive rating of 75% or more. [ in the non liberated areas] The figure of a 25% positive was I dare say, a human construct based on commoner fish species across the board and diluted as such. The concentration of cyanide collecting on the more coral intensive dwellers and most important fish is really the problem. Its not the numbers chart that tells the story best, but "what causes the most damage to the environment and the trades reputation" .
No one says, 'Ah, my $12.00 barred goby died of cyanide poisoning!"But they sure have wondered a lot how a $100.00 bullet proof clown triggerfish wastes away and dies on them.
Steve

 

[John_Brandt]

This sounds as an interesting project and a concrete contribution to help solving one of the causes of unnecessary mortality to community level. Could you please find out with Paul to see how can we develop a project proposal to implement the holding pens technique in communities working with MAC?

Thanks

Jaime Baquero
Ocean Voice International

Jaime,

Wall Street is quite a functional structure. It serves as a holding place for animals, but it also acts as an on-the-water meeting place for the fishers and their coordinator. It allows rejected fish to easily be released back to the reef.

But we quickly found its limitation. Only so many people can board Wall Street before it begins to submerge Now, I'm much bigger than most of these fishers but I'm not a very big Westerner. Once, I was the straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back as I climbed onto the raft. Wall Street sank about 3 inches below the surface. Everybody grabbed for the paperwork, the tuba and the nudibranch egg snack bowl.

I will forward your suggestion to Paul Holthus, with inquiry as to how a project such as this could be developed.

Thank you,
John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago