Cyanide Damage Evidence?

[mkirda]

Kalkbreath,

Since you were so adamant in previous posts about how cyanide does not damage corals, I thought I would point out to you pictures that show that it does:

See the figures 9 and 9a in the following article...

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/m ... /index.htm

Then tell me you can see the huge hole where grouper were hiding...

This is the tell-tale signs of cyanide bleaching in coral- and the hiding areas are large enough for the average small-sized aquarium fish, NOT a grouper.
This is the dark side of the hobby.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Wow! Your correct!.......... You found the vast expanse of cyanide destruction..........I bet you would make a fine Easter egg hunter!!.....................I found the article to be a well presented account............................. By the way........was the amount of live coral damage greater or less with the barrier net entanglement,.then the partial bleaching on the juiced coral?
_________________
og kush

 

[mkirda]

By the way........was the amount of live coral damage greater or less with the barrier net entanglement,.then the partial bleaching on the juiced coral?

Kalkbreath,

What I observed, less. I think the worst case I saw was one net got stuck in an S. hystrix. The collector did make one or two small frags, maybe 1-1.5 cm in length. The colony was basketball-sized. I don't think I would have been that patient, but the collector really tried to remove the net without harming the coral at all.

Now, is this because they wanted to protect the coral or the net? {grin}

Regards.
Mike Kirda
P.S. I was never good at easter egg hunts. Bleached coral is obvious because in a sea of color, something bright white shines out like a beacon of light... Your eyes are drawn to it like a doe to headlights.

 

[clarionreef]

Hello,
Collecting with barrier nets is inherently gentle on the coral because if not, the resulting tears in the net sent you topside to repair the net during valueable collecting time.
From smashing and poisoning the coral to being careful with it is a blessing that netcollecting brings. If you are critical of net collecting you must have something better in mind. I'd love to hear it.
Kalk, whoever is advising you on this stuff from the wholesalers community... has about as much credibility as the Iraqi information minister.
Steve...lifelong commercial net collector

 

[mkirda]

has about as much credibility as the Iraqi information minister.

"We do not smash coral. We have not smashed coral within a hundred miles of Baghdad. The infidels smash the coral."

 

[Kalkbreath]

.I think Mkirda overlooked the"vast" in my response..........Two partially bleached corals is all you could come upon in a week of diving speaks volumes .........{ and id the thought ever cross your mind that the fish which lives in that hole beneath the coral might possibly have repeatedly rubbed the coral going in and out and caused it to bleach} You went clear across the globe to find a smoking cyanide bottle ,and all you could come up with is this?'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''.And Cortez knows what its like to use a barrier net in anything but the calmest of seas....................and as soon as the fish learn to avoid the nets.........catching them will become even more fruitless............Please read the article again, ? i find nothing but a dictator like collector boss thats causing all the suffering for the fishermen.perhaps the US military needs to conduct a "shock and awe " take over of the Philippines, in order to oust the corruption?
_________________
Mercedes 300SEL 6.3

 

[clarionreef]

Yep Kalk,
You never cease to shock and awe me.
Corruption in the Philippines? Yikes! Thats what our trade has been based upon!
Calm seas only for netcollecting???What? Its windy half the time.
Yet...Its always calm at 50 '.
One hopes for calm seas, but often it is not. In fact, rough water collecting is what happens most of the time in the shallower areas. Thats why the idea of a lotta leads and a lotta floats on the barrier nets is good for heavy surge zones.
Fish that learn to avoid the nets? huh?
Damage hard to find as in Mike photo? In many collecting areas LIVE coral is hard to find!
Touche Minister! You haven't lost your touch!
I stand humbled.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Two partially bleached corals is all you could come upon in a week of diving speaks volumes

Kalkbreath,

Boy. Boy, oh boy. Did you actually *READ* the article?

If I could do a week of diving on one tank, coming up with lots of spare air and an empty camera, and only have found two corals, you might have a leg to stand on. Of course, after a week underwater using a partial tank of air, I would also likely be seeing Fox and Mulder show up, asking me if I had experienced a 'time loss' and/or 'alien probings'...

I did one dive with the collectors. Shot one roll of film. Roger then hightailed it back to take his wife to the hospital. That's it.

Previously, you have stated that cyanide wouldn't harm corals. I present photographic evidence to the contrary and you attack me personally rather than confront the incontrovertable evidence that YOU ARE WRONG!

Do you have any idea how weak your argument is?

Regards.
Mike Kirda
Kalkbreath's creed: Denial is policy.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Once again,................Maybe I am missing something? Tell me how these two corals can be called a" vast blanket of white death"?{ there are many corals in the Fla. Keys that look like this} I still after all these years , have yet to see a true photo of any large scale distruction by this hobby {only word of mouth ] Why?....... Even when you travel across the world to prove me wrong ............all you can find is this? I have been told by you , that there is wide spread distruction by this hobby....................Two corals that are not even dead does not warrent a hobby reform movement.........I am sure that some where , one day you might actualy find such a site. But the fact that it is so elusive certainly means something........
_________________
usa recession history

 

[mkirda]

Tell me how these two corals can be called a" vast blanket of white death"?

Thanks for putting words into my mouth.

You stated emphatically that cyanide does not harm corals. I provided photographic evidence that it does. Furthermore, the areas do not support your other supposition- that even if cyanide is being used, it is only to target food fish such as groupers... There is no hole here large enough for anything larger than a goby or blennie, let alone lapu-lapu...

You demanded evidence, I provided it.

Can we now say that you understand that cyanide damages corals?

As far as your other "points" (I would term them obfuscations...), the fact that I photographed only so few spots has more to do with the time I spent underwater than anything else. Not to mention that the area is somewhat protected now as BFAR patrols it, and has a lot of fishermen that are acting to protect the area, turning in cyanide fishermen when they can. So in this area, the management plan is working. So I would not expect there to be tons and tons of damage to this particular collection area. Surely even you can see and understand that...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

I will say it again.....until you actually have some proof that cyanide fishing is harming more then two corals, your cause {like the rid mountains of bigfoots campaign } will forever be just another lost cause. Even I am surprised that this is all that you could come up with., so I know that everyone else is as well{ and too scared to comment} I am beginning to get that same feeling that I had after Y2K came and went.?
_________________
Obesity Forum

 

[mkirda]

I will say it again.....until you actually have some proof that cyanide fishing is harming more then two corals, your cause {like the rid mountains of bigfoots campaign } will forever be just another lost cause. Even I am surprised that this is all that you could come up with., so I know that everyone else is as well{ and too scared to comment} I am beginning to get that same feeling that I had after Y2K came and went.?

Kalkbreath,

You are surprised that I only noticed (and took photos of) two corals damaged by cyanide in 30 minutes of diving, while I was focused on taking pictures of fish collectors, in an area that is somewhat protected via active BFAR patrols???

Gee, first you claim cyanide damage doesn't occur, period. Then, it is only by food fishermen, not by the marine ornamental collectors... Nope- not us! Not by the hobby!
Now, confronted by evidence, you still can't admit that you were wrong, and furthermore, try to diminish the evidence by saying that Gee, he only got two photos, so things ain't that bad now, are they?

Logic, I see, is not one of your strong points. Nor is making a persuasive argument.

Palauig is not subject to such high cyanide usage due to local BFAR officials that care, and actually prosecute the offenders. If I wanted to go diving to prove to you that there are denuded reefs subjected to pretty much daily blast fishing and cyanide use, I'd just head down to Cebu, maybe off Lapu-Lapu City. But the truth is, I have no desire to go down there- I could take 30 rolls of slides of dead corals and I have a feeling that you'd still come up with some lame-a**ed (Sorry, MHA), cockamamie argument that the images didn't prove a thing. When you cannot admit that the hobby has *ANY* negative effect, no matter how small, on the environment, your argument becomes religious and outside of all rational logic or discussion.

Y2K, as such, was a non-event because of the fact that it got covered by the media. Anyone who was in the IT sector in the preceeding two years knows this. If the media played it up, IT laughed, then got to work and fixed the issue. By the time it came, things were fixed, minus a few minor quirks here or there. But the ideas that the sky was going to collapse- Not even the newspaper reporters writing those stories (to sell more papers) actually believed it. And if you did, well, I have a bamboo fish cage to sell ya.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Sure, I keep hearing about all the damage.......its just never in the area which anyone owns a camera :wink:
_________________
Digestive Disorders Forum

 

[mkirda]

Sure, I keep hearing about all the damage.......its just never in the area which anyone owns a camera :wink:

I *KNEW* you'd come up with a lame response...

I posit that the air in Manila is really, really dirty.
Do I have any pictures that prove it? No, I don't.
I didn't want to waste any film on brown clouds.

Certainly any u/w photographers are going to focus
(literally and figuratively) on the best items to photograph
in that locale. Even in heavily hit areas, there still is *some*
life that is photographically interesting. However, most
u/w photographers would look at pictures of an under-
water wasteland as a waste of film. Who would want to
sit through slide after slide of it? Who would publish it?
Who would want to own those slides? More importantly,
who would want to dive in those areas? No one I know.

I think that explains the relative lack of images for you,
Kalkbreath. Next time I am in an reef area hit hard by
cyanide and/or blast fishing, I'll be sure to take a few
more images and send them your way. I'll also be sure
to send you a bill for my dive gear, film and processing
costs to get the images.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

OK Everyone,
Sign up and send in your deposits for the worlds first Cyanide reef damage tour" led by yours truly.
We'll start you off in Manila and then do a loop de loop around the country. Pack light to make way for your camera equipment.
Hilights of the tour, led by former cyanide fisherman will include the Bolinao reef graveyards, the Polilio underwater cemetaries and the Danajon Bank underwater parking lots chock ful of paving materials. Each site will have a guest tour guide ie. the biggest cyanide user and distributer in the area. He will answer all your questions about how we know whats cyanide damage, whats siltation and whats dynamite. Hint...areas with zero river runoffs tend to not be silted for example.
Giving cyanide fisherman alternative livlihood is what this is all about, and having them earn a salary while explaining the difference between apples and oranges and their intimate association with each areas destruction for the past 20 years or so ad infinitum will be their primary task.
Tour packages start at $1850. a head, airfare not included.
Takers anyone?
PS.Investors in this exciting new TOUR Company, please get in touch.
Steve Robinson
e. Coral Reef Destruction Tours Ltd. guide
[ex importer]

 

[mkirda]

OK Everyone,
Sign up and send in your deposits for the worlds first Cyanide reef damage tour" led by yours truly.

Can we start up a collection for Kalkbreath?
I'll even take photos for your brochure, Steve...
We can get Kalkbreath holding a squirt bottle... Maybe hefting a bottle of fertilizer mix onto a reef flat? I'm sure with a 50mm lens and a polarising filter, I could get the blues to really *pop*, just like the white of the water spout.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

You dont find it odd that there has never in twenty years, been any photos showing the the public what it is you guys say is out there? Even the" feed the children" organizers have some thing for use to look at. The least you could do is take a photo of some of the natural bleachings in Fiji or the Maldives and pass them off as The Philippines! Which Im sure you will get around to sooner or latter. Funny how the only areas of vast white death are where the seafood fishermen fish !
_________________
Planet Eclipse Ego

 

[Anonymous]

Don't argue with Kalkbreath.

He is a local fish seller in Atlanta. I read his posts and I see a store owner with his head in the sand, refusing to listen to sound science. Then I see him continue to make a profit off of the hobby that causes damage he ignores.

Luckily, corporate responsiblity and morality are not important in America, or his store would not succeed.

This isn't to say he's not a good person, nor should it imply that he doesn't know how to run a store.

I am only stating that I personally choose never to enter his store based on his display in this forum and I would hope others would do the same thing if they felt they had moral reservations over the ownership of a store or company.

This is also a reason I will not shop at Home Depot. I have read repeatedly how they sell rainforest wood and I disagree with this process. I have many reservations about their choice to build an aquarium in my community as well.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd just like to add very quickly that I don't want to seem like I am morally superior, or that Kalkbreath is morally reproachable.

Very clearly, I'd like everyone to know that his way of doing business just doesn't mesh with my outlook, my moral framework, or my goals as a conservationist. That does not at all imply that my morals are better. They are just different.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Once again, Some times its how you view the total picture that counts....................The Home depot sells 98% pine tree products, threre are no pine trees in the rain forests. I think you may be speaking about some of the trim moldings they offer. The Mahogany they sell is from the Philippines. I bet you {Dr. reef} Have no idea what product it is they sell that is from a rain Forrest? You most likely heard a rummer and took it to heartwood. Same thing with all the vast killing this hobby is conducting on the reefs, you have heard rummers .but have never actually seen verified destruction.{Im beginning to think NO ONE has} Even if The Home Depot has sold a few exotic wood trim pieces, keep in mind the huge education gain their aquarium will give the general public and the increased awareness hundreds of thousands of people will be enlightened with.? I would give up the few bits of wood that home depot sells to gain the great aquarium. You would most likely just set back and HOPE that thing get better on there own.............. Much like the corals and fish that are taken from the reefs, these sacrifices enlighten the public of the wonderful creatures which are in need of human intervention in order to save from the sewage and destruction of civilization. Without many more people willing to change their human behaviors the reefs are toast.............Even our own US of A residents of Fla are not willing to do what it takes to stop their own reefs from dying! I bet if each and every resident iof the Keys were a hobbyists...........they would be willing to make the sacrifices.........
_________________
1960 recession