The Big Switch
- Thread starter ferdiecruz
- Start date
John,
Right now I really wouldn't care,
even if the apprehended collectors HAD been MAC certified.
You sometimes get a few rotten santols, no matter how carefully
you tend the tree, and by devoting time to 'clarifying' MAC's
non-involvement in the incident, you're likely missing the point:
MAC should have been involved.
If MAC truly wants to deliver on its mission
Ferdie's just showed you one area that needs your attention.
BFAR lab can be trusted, but once the result leaves their hands,
or perhaps even while the sample is in transit to them,
we're open to the sort of 'big switch' that Ferdie describes.
Can you work out a way for MAC to assist the proper escort of test specimens
(and especially test results) to avoid tampering by the cyanide patrons?
While my offer to Ferdie was in earnest, I'd rather it was someone else
escorting/guarding samples and test results.
I suspect I've already used up my proverbial nine lives,
and besides...
If it's a certain ex-SOLCOM General that Ferdie's actually talking about,
that may be too much heat for even this cook to loiter in the kitchen.
horge
PS: MAC has a lot of learning to do. So does IMA, etc.... even Haribon.
While the Ferdie's latest online lecture may be spicy going, it remains part of the grand syllabus, and a priceless resource for NGO's to learn from.
Learn, and become learned
Ignore, and remain.... well, ...just try to learn, please?
Right now I really wouldn't care,
even if the apprehended collectors HAD been MAC certified.
You sometimes get a few rotten santols, no matter how carefully
you tend the tree, and by devoting time to 'clarifying' MAC's
non-involvement in the incident, you're likely missing the point:
MAC should have been involved.
If MAC truly wants to deliver on its mission
Ferdie's just showed you one area that needs your attention.
BFAR lab can be trusted, but once the result leaves their hands,
or perhaps even while the sample is in transit to them,
we're open to the sort of 'big switch' that Ferdie describes.
Can you work out a way for MAC to assist the proper escort of test specimens
(and especially test results) to avoid tampering by the cyanide patrons?
While my offer to Ferdie was in earnest, I'd rather it was someone else
escorting/guarding samples and test results.
I suspect I've already used up my proverbial nine lives,
and besides...
If it's a certain ex-SOLCOM General that Ferdie's actually talking about,
that may be too much heat for even this cook to loiter in the kitchen.
horge
PS: MAC has a lot of learning to do. So does IMA, etc.... even Haribon.
While the Ferdie's latest online lecture may be spicy going, it remains part of the grand syllabus, and a priceless resource for NGO's to learn from.
Learn, and become learned
Ignore, and remain.... well, ...just try to learn, please?
Horge,
Thank you for the constructive suggestions. The gravity of the situation was not lost on me. My quickness to defend MAC was based on the amount of negative (and often undeserved) publicity it gets here. Given Ferdinand's ambiguous writing style, a naive reader could think that MAC Certified Collectors had been using cyanide.
I will hold back on any further comments until I know more. Knowing if there was hanky-panky or an honest error would be critical to arriving at a meaningful position on this incident. Knowing that anything can happen is helpful too, if disheartening.
Thank you for the constructive suggestions. The gravity of the situation was not lost on me. My quickness to defend MAC was based on the amount of negative (and often undeserved) publicity it gets here. Given Ferdinand's ambiguous writing style, a naive reader could think that MAC Certified Collectors had been using cyanide.
I will hold back on any further comments until I know more. Knowing if there was hanky-panky or an honest error would be critical to arriving at a meaningful position on this incident. Knowing that anything can happen is helpful too, if disheartening.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Lee,
When its avoiding naming names you don't like it. When its specific allegation with names, you also don't like it.
This is an open mike here [no pun intended]. Its open to hobbyists who by definition are here for the good times and enjoyment. But the industry behind the hobby is an incredible story and perhaps not for public comsumption. Perhaps a closed forum for the kind of stuff, true stuff that is distasteful is possible.
There are worse stories then this...far worse. Should the cyanide murders in Palawan from Pagbilao raiders be the next post?
But if we dumb it down too much and make it too milktoast, it will not reveal the serious need for change. Good Filipinos have already died in defense of their home reef areas! This is hardball, not tee ball.
Thanks for concern for our safety over there. All I can say to any exporter or henchmen sent to do some evil deed, 'They better not miss".
With better funding could come better field security for all.
Steve Robinson, AMDA
PS. Mike, you are in danger of talking to all sides, to search for solutions with no hidden agenda. Whats up with that??
When its avoiding naming names you don't like it. When its specific allegation with names, you also don't like it.
This is an open mike here [no pun intended]. Its open to hobbyists who by definition are here for the good times and enjoyment. But the industry behind the hobby is an incredible story and perhaps not for public comsumption. Perhaps a closed forum for the kind of stuff, true stuff that is distasteful is possible.
There are worse stories then this...far worse. Should the cyanide murders in Palawan from Pagbilao raiders be the next post?
But if we dumb it down too much and make it too milktoast, it will not reveal the serious need for change. Good Filipinos have already died in defense of their home reef areas! This is hardball, not tee ball.
Thanks for concern for our safety over there. All I can say to any exporter or henchmen sent to do some evil deed, 'They better not miss".
With better funding could come better field security for all.
Steve Robinson, AMDA
PS. Mike, you are in danger of talking to all sides, to search for solutions with no hidden agenda. Whats up with that??
cortez marine":3ps0zs8h said:
Heaven help me for trying to wade through it all and trying to help...
Yet my conscience will not let me do anything less.
I guess it would all be better if presented as thinly-veiled 'fiction' instead of the all-too-true reality.
Maybe I shouldn't have taken the red pill...
Regards.
Mike Kirda
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
No Mike,
The red pill was the right one. The trades not only been on the blue one for decades, when informed of the choice...it still prefers the blue one.
The Quislings for the cyanide trade and its apologists getting to ya?
Do what I do. Imagine that you don't care so much. Imagine that your interests are strictly superficial, personal and myopic. Imagine that you are not married to a Filipina and that nothing really matters.
Imagine that it never gets better than this and so why try...Get up and walk around and take a deep breath and relize this...there are none so dedicated and direct than a volunteer...and give em hell.
I have seen the limits to diplomacy and cowardice...I'm gettin pretty tired of it myself.
Sincerely, Steve
The red pill was the right one. The trades not only been on the blue one for decades, when informed of the choice...it still prefers the blue one.
The Quislings for the cyanide trade and its apologists getting to ya?
Do what I do. Imagine that you don't care so much. Imagine that your interests are strictly superficial, personal and myopic. Imagine that you are not married to a Filipina and that nothing really matters.
Imagine that it never gets better than this and so why try...Get up and walk around and take a deep breath and relize this...there are none so dedicated and direct than a volunteer...and give em hell.
I have seen the limits to diplomacy and cowardice...I'm gettin pretty tired of it myself.
Sincerely, Steve
cortez marine":1rqjttye said:
al'le-ga'tion, n. declaration; statement, often without proof.
I like proof. I do not like conclusions reached by others that I am supposed to accept without proof. I do not like it when I'm told that the proof will not be forthcoming. It eats at my training as a scientist. I do not like people or groups being called criminals or frauds, or inferred to be criminals or frauds, unless it has been determined by a court of law or a damning amount of indisputable, publicly available proof.
I am a member of the vulgar, unwashed public - a hobbyist. I do not and never have derived income from any facet of the hobby. I do not have a significant past with any person or NGO here. Everyone that I have had the privilege of corresponding with or meeting that was associated with "The Industry Forum" has appeared to have some level of sincerity to me, even if some appeared to be highly self-motivated.
So why is it that everyone loves to take pot shots at each other?
Everybody's buddy,
-Lee
SciGuy2":3avwnx0y said:
Lee,
I would respectfully ask you to get your butt on a plane and visit the Philippines.
Truly, I think, this is the only way you (or anyone else here, for that matter) will understand the situation.
Even then, it will only be a cursory understanding.
Talking in general, not about this specific incident:
As far as proof goes, you have to be willing to accept the responsibility that goes along with the truth, however distasteful it may be.
None of this is a game. It all affects someone's lives. Some for the better, and some for the worse.
Those affected for the worse tend to fight back, and not play by the rules we here in the US are used to.
They also tend to do so in ways where there is no proof that would stand up in court.
(You want a good US example? Where's Jimmy Hoffa? You know he was killed.
You know pretty much who did it. Can you prove it?)
I doubt I can contribute much more to this thread.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
OK LEE,
No industry forum. Its should all go out to the masses.
Proof can be in the Philippines quite a joke. To prove things you need due process of law and the big switch thread was exactly how that due process of proof can and is subverted...by characters involved in the law.
It would appear that due process of law and proofs in the Philippines are not up to your standards. OK, and they're not up to what Filipinos want to see either!
Waiting for American style proofs will;
1] Delay things forever
2] Muzzle all observation and constructive criticism
Ninoy Aquino was shot in broad daylight and the official verdict was there was no proof for many years that Imedas chain- dog, general Ver did it. Well he did...and got away scott free.
The case advanced by former IMA trainer and former MAC trainer Ferdie Cruz was shocking...like the Lacy Peterson case. There is no proof yet... but she is dead. Something terrible did happen.
Our system only takes a year or two and thats a fast one.
I can see it now, the Pagbilao murders will surface soon on reefs.org. People died. That is a fact of life. You want proof? You want linkage? You want to know who those divers in the seized cyanide boat worked for? Really?
Steve
No industry forum. Its should all go out to the masses.
Proof can be in the Philippines quite a joke. To prove things you need due process of law and the big switch thread was exactly how that due process of proof can and is subverted...by characters involved in the law.
It would appear that due process of law and proofs in the Philippines are not up to your standards. OK, and they're not up to what Filipinos want to see either!
Waiting for American style proofs will;
1] Delay things forever
2] Muzzle all observation and constructive criticism
Ninoy Aquino was shot in broad daylight and the official verdict was there was no proof for many years that Imedas chain- dog, general Ver did it. Well he did...and got away scott free.
The case advanced by former IMA trainer and former MAC trainer Ferdie Cruz was shocking...like the Lacy Peterson case. There is no proof yet... but she is dead. Something terrible did happen.
Our system only takes a year or two and thats a fast one.
I can see it now, the Pagbilao murders will surface soon on reefs.org. People died. That is a fact of life. You want proof? You want linkage? You want to know who those divers in the seized cyanide boat worked for? Really?
Steve
Steve,
Instead of offending people please answer the questions of my previous post.
1) Why you quitted helping the fish collectors of the Philippines when they needed that help?
To inform the readers. Did you get paid by IMA-Canada to implement the Netsman project in the Philippines? The other members of the organization worked as volunteers without getting any salary. I have been working as volunteer with OVI since 1989 and I haven't collected any ...ANY MONEY at all. I have been helping to do things because a moral and professional responsibility. I feel that I can NOT ignore the Filipino problem the way you did.
2) Back in the late 80's you knew there was a problem in the Philippines and had part of the solution to solve it. Why you ignored that fact for more than 12 (TWELVE YEARS) ???????
This is a serious matter of credibility...Please explain.
Jaime Baquero
Instead of offending people please answer the questions of my previous post.
1) Why you quitted helping the fish collectors of the Philippines when they needed that help?
To inform the readers. Did you get paid by IMA-Canada to implement the Netsman project in the Philippines? The other members of the organization worked as volunteers without getting any salary. I have been working as volunteer with OVI since 1989 and I haven't collected any ...ANY MONEY at all. I have been helping to do things because a moral and professional responsibility. I feel that I can NOT ignore the Filipino problem the way you did.
2) Back in the late 80's you knew there was a problem in the Philippines and had part of the solution to solve it. Why you ignored that fact for more than 12 (TWELVE YEARS) ???????
This is a serious matter of credibility...Please explain.
Jaime Baquero
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
I did explain Jaime,
The groups you're dragging back into the lime light spent the money on different things, refused to provide netting and generally commited treason to the cause and abandoned those of us on the front lines who did the real work.
I think that working with them futher would've made me an accomplice to their fraud. Thats the answer son..
Steve Robinson
The groups you're dragging back into the lime light spent the money on different things, refused to provide netting and generally commited treason to the cause and abandoned those of us on the front lines who did the real work.
I think that working with them futher would've made me an accomplice to their fraud. Thats the answer son..
Steve Robinson
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