Fish Mortality Study. Part 2

[Frank Lallo]

Following the criteria mentioned in part one we then gathered a list of suppliers, airlines, delivery companies & any method of delivery the owners used to purchase and attain there fish. We then categorized each shipment by the following.

1) Location, West, Midwest, East coasts.
2) Species
3) DOA
4) 1-day
5) 2-4 days
6) 1 week
7) where we were able 3-weeks and beyond
8) Time of year ( spring, winter, summer, fall )


This was done for each and every individual shipment.
Then the fish where grouped in hundereds.


The object here was to get a fairly accurate count on fish mortality, NOT THE CAUSE !...we did not take into account cyanide, mugging's, mob hits, bbq's or suicidue. Just the Dead !.

We did however attempt to have the owners measure the bags for ammonia, nitrate ect... this was to much work for them & would have been costly to the owners. We also asked what if any acclumation proccess was use if any when the fish arrived. These fish where broken down each way from sunday but for the purpose of this discussion the Final numbers for each West, Midwest, East will be given. I have a few box's here this morning thanks to my son and I am going threw them this afternoon...I will begin publishing the results as I find them, both individual shipments, group lots & speices. I will use there common names so everyone can read & understand. It is to be understood on the serious side of things, we could not account for things such as Cargo holds tempatures, Flight delays, pick up delays, damaged box's or bags. I hope you get my meaning. Well off to the box's let the proccess begin.

Frankie

 

[MaryHM]

We did however attempt to have the owners measure the bags for ammonia, nitrate ect... this was to much work for them & would have been costly to the owners.

This statement seems quite strange to me. Retailers didn't think that losing 60% of their fish was so costly that they had to get out of the business, since you stated in a previous thread that most of them accepted the DOA's and made their money off the drygoods. But testing a couple of bags of water each shipment (probably once a week) with a test kit that probably cost less than $1 a test is too high a price to pay to figure out why you're losing 60% of your fish??? 8O

 

[Frank Lallo]

Mary,
2 points of clarification first.
1) No where did I state that retailers excepted DOA's. You failed to mention in your post that the retailers got credits for there DOA's.

2)The simple test as you state and it's cost is way wrong, why ?
As i am sure you are fimilar with your chemistry opening one of the bags and exposing them to fresh air would of cause A) an immediate change in the gas content of the bags and B) A chemical change as far as ph and other properties of the water. A simple $1.00 test is totaly useless in this case. So yes to most of the owners it was not economical or even fisable.

3) I ask you, If i was to remove all your dry goods an accesseroies from your outlet and left you with FISH only how long would your buss stay afloat ? As a buss woman you surely keep track of your sales. It is none of my buss to know how much money you make, But i am sure the FISH ONLYside of the buss is feeding you and paying your mortgage.

 

[Frank Lallo]

Hello All,
We need to get a few things stright about the Fish Mortality Study I conducted and some of the private messages & post's I see here.

Some of you seem to suggest that I am suggesting that the accumulated mortality is around 90% and are mixing statements by Peter on papers he has written in the past. The figures I will give here in the future are based on individual deliveries to different owners, from different companies, on different days in different parts of the country on TARA firma only US soil. They in no way shape or form suggest mortalities for the entire chain only those arriving in the US of A....period. Also this study was done as a STARTING POINT a jump point if i may to begin bringing these numbers down profiting everyone in the long run. But as usual the Industry did nothing but argue and discuss it on web pages. I didn't see and still don't see any individual,company or orginization putting up there own study to contradict or support my findings, There are plenty whom can do this lets see, AMDA, Masna, too name just a few of the roughly 30 or so that are capable of doing such a study. Why don't they do it.....My guess is there afraid to because if the US goverment got there hands on it the trade mite be shut down in a matter of minutes. There will be a follow-up study done begining with-in the next year for a comparas followed by a study of net caught fish to see just what the difference is between the two. It's time the indusrty the people involved with it & the hobbiest put $$$$$$ on the side and start working together to rebuild a not so unexhastable supply of Ocean going species.

Thank you.

 

[Anonymous]

I didn't see and still don't see any individual,company or orginization putting up there own study to contradict or support my findings,

Seems to me there are three different wholesalers, and about four different east coast LFS's that are all offering their own day to day data to contradict your findings. I recieve up to two shipments a week through a craphole airport, and the only time I have had anywhere close to 60% mortality was when a flight was delayed in Charlotte for 24 hours in the middle of an ice storm. And even then I had one anthias pull through.

Another thing I'd be interested to know, the LFS that you said was black balled for participating in the study: Are you sure there suppliers wouldn't sell to them because they participated in the study, or because they were claiming 60% DOA week after week? There are certainly more than two places to get fish from. In order for the study to make any sense to me, a followup would be neccessary to determine how many of theose 60%ers were still in business years later. The Industry has its own way of taking care of crappy stores. Just having some tanks full of water with some salt water fish doesn't really mean much except over the long haul.

 

[Frank Lallo]

Hi Rover,
No matter what the cause of death, be it flight delays, mismanagement or whatever the cause does it not equal DEAD FISH ?
I you want to get real tec on the subject sit in a cargo hole of a plain and see if they are keeping the hole at a required 50 degree,s....How many Fish have died in cargo holes that were say 35-40 degrees and froze to death. Lets get real here. Yes I agree with you & it was real easy to pick out in the data which stores were absolutely terrible at maintaining fish & there were others that the were just marvelous. Does it matter which stores where which & are they still in buss, maybe.....but again it all comes down to one thing. The Fish are still Dead buddy...period. Would you rather have it done so that only the well maintained store's are in the study to mask the bigger problem. I don't think you would. Yes there is know dout that the badly managed stores have had a effect on the study but we have to include everyone. In you own statement you say you lost all but one fish to a flight delay do to an ice storm......They were DOA to you no, do we discount these DEAD FISH...I certinly hope not. I will say this one more time......The study was done for DOA's, how these DOA occured NOBODY no's...I did not ask about flight delays, Ice storms, box's left on tarmacks for 6 hours in 90 degree heat, nor did i investagate, mob hits, suicides, fish fries, muggings. Its was DOA"s when you got them were they alive....Don't make a federal case out of a simple study that was done as a starting point. And you want to know why so many good people have dropped out and tag's,Mac's, Masna's, amda's, IMA, OVI's of the world have had trouble getting funding and finding people to better the trade . As posted here, one of the biggest import/exports in the world told us flat out he had a 70% mortality rate at his facilites that was before the fish were shipped. After some testing was done on water samples and some results began coming in this person got so nervous His cooperation stopped immediately...You tell me why ?

Thanks
Frankie

 

[MaryHM]

I ask you, If i was to remove all your dry goods an accesseroies from your outlet and left you with FISH only how long would your buss stay afloat ? As a buss woman you surely keep track of your sales. It is none of my buss to know how much money you make, But i am sure the FISH ONLYside of the buss is feeding you and paying your mortgage.

All I do is fish and corals. Well, I also carry Selcon and Algone, but if we sell 20 of those a month it's a banner dry goods month! So livestock is what feeds my family and pays my mortgage, which is why I have a very good understanding about what goes on in the industry. Now, if you're talking about a normal retail outlet, of course they aren't going to carry fish only. They wouldn't make money because of mortalities, but because dry goods are a huge part of the industry. It would be like if you were an office supply store that only carried office chairs and manila folders. Even if you had the best chairs and folders in the world, people would be forced to go elsewhere to buy their paper and pens.

What I and others are telling you is that in our very extensive experience dealing with fish, be it on the wholesale or retail end, none of us have ever experienced anything near the percentages you are talking about. You don't seem interested in acknowledging that fact, just arguing why your data is correct. And Rover is right. His airport is one of the most aggravating, screwed up, difficult to get into airports I deal with. He had a shipment delayed a day a few weeks back and didn't lose anywhere near 60%.

 

[dizzy]

Frank,
I would like to know where you got your call list from. I don't know of any directory that has a list of all the marine dealers in the United States. Maybe you accidentally got hold of some sort of "blacklist" of dealers who report excessive DOAs. Something that the "Wholesaler's Mafia" uses to inform each other of who the deadbeats are. :wink:

 

[Frank Lallo]

Dizzy,
From Macna's, Amda, Aquarium club letters, Masna, and industry people.

 

[dizzy]

Frank,
I will wait for the rest of your information to become public before I pass judgement. I have owned and operated Fishey Business in Bowling Green Kentucky for over 18-years. I have been to every MACNA since 1995. I have been an AMDA member for many years. I don't recall receiving a phone call from you, but it is quite possible I missed the call.

 

[John_Brandt]

Following the criteria mentioned in part one we then gathered a list of suppliers, airlines, delivery companies & any method of delivery the owners used to purchase and attain there fish. We then categorized each shipment by the following.

1) Location, West, Midwest, East coasts.
2) Species
3) DOA
4) 1-day
5) 2-4 days
6) 1 week
7) where we were able 3-weeks and beyond
8] Time of year ( spring, winter, summer, fall )

Frank,

Peter and yourself have been using a 60% average mortality at East Coast retailers statistic. This stat has been said to include DOAs and DAAs for 3 days. I see that your survey point #5 is 2-4 days. Was this lumped into 2-4 days, or were you actually able to tease out the 3-day figure that has been continually referred to?

 

[Frank Lallo]

John,
They were not lumped. Data was for each day. And if you would please do me a favor. You are seeing the figures for yourself as I post them so derive your opinion from what you see, not what you have heard. Also keep a few in mind, When I started this I asked many people for help & Peter was the only one to step forward. It is going to take awhile to post it all because of my condition. I can only sit for 15 or 20 minutes at a time so typing all of this up is going to take qu some time but it will get there.

Frankie.

 

[John_Brandt]

John,
They were not lumped. Data was for each day. And if you would please do me a favor. You are seeing the figures for yourself as I post them so derive your opinion from what you see, not what you have heard. Also keep a few in mind, When I started this I asked many people for help & Peter was the only one to step forward. It is going to take awhile to post it all because of my condition. I can only sit for 15 or 20 minutes at a time so typing all of this up is going to take qu some time but it will get there.

Frankie.

Frank,

Please don't overexert yourself in gathering up all of this stuff. Really, we can be very patient with you on this.

I'm not sure what you mean by waiting for what I will see, not what I have heard. I am using direct quotes from Rubec in his printed reports and here in this forum. I don't think I'm going from heresay or anecdote with anything I've put forth.

 

[PeterIMA]

John, With regard to the 2-4 day DAA refer to my answer on the other thread.
Peterr