Do Frank Lallo's Mortality Statistics Reflect Reality?

[PeterIMA]

Vitz, I respect your opinion. You have come out strongly against the use of cyanide for collection of marine ornamental fish. However, I also agree with Wayne Ryan. The industry is on a collision course with either being shut down or destroying the marine resources that it needs. So far, all I see is a few "reformists" like Mike Kirda, Mary Middlebrook, and Steve Robinson attempting to do anything constructive (e.g., raising funds to support purchase of nets and/or net-training). Until, key importers become involved in reform efforts, the "Reeformists" are justified in threatening to shut down the trade.

Peter Rubec

 

[naesco]

Vitz, I respect your opinion. You have come out strongly against the use of cyanide for collection of marine ornamental fish. However, I also agree with Wayne Ryan. The industry is on a collision course with either being shut down or destroying the marine resources that it needs. So far, all I see is a few "reformists" like Mike Kirda, Mary Middlebrook, and Steve Robinson attempting to do anything constructive (e.g., raising funds to support purchase of nets and/or net-training). Until, key importers become involved in reform efforts, the "Reeformists" are justified in threatening to shut down the trade.

Peter Rubec

Interesting comment.

While on vacation I went for an early evening walk along the beach and I thought of what I was trying to do and what others had already attempted to do.

I came to the following conclusion. Reformists like those mentioned above, yourself and many others spent countless hours, personal sacrifice and their own money attempting to put a stop to the cyanide trade. They were sucessfully in doing somethings (traianing , education, netting) but they failed to put an end to the use of cyanide.

I concluded that the reason they failed was they did not receive from industry the committment to stop cyanide use and the funding to do it.

I concluded that to stop cyanide industry must buy into reform.

I concluded that if industry failed to make the committment the only way to stop the use of cyanide in our hobby was to shut the Philippines and Indonesian industry down and that the only way to accomplish that was to seek a total embargo.

I concluded that to get an embargo quickly REEForm would have to mass public support and that to do this required the experience of organizations like Greenpeace and the David Suzuki Foundation.

I concluded that industry would not allow the opportunity to clean up their act themselves to slip through their fingers, and let organizations like Greenpeace to do it for them.

 

[flameangel1]

naesco

Have you ever heard of the FOOD FISH INDUSTRY ??????????
And their use of cyanide ?????????????????

If not, I do hope you realize that shutting down our (not your ) industry, will INCREASE the use of cyanide .
Hmmmm, maybe that is what you really are trying to do.

 

[mkirda]

I came to the following conclusion. Reformists like those mentioned above, yourself and many others spent countless hours, personal sacrifice and their own money attempting to put a stop to the cyanide trade. They were sucessfully in doing somethings (traianing , education, netting) but they failed to put an end to the use of cyanide.

Oh, for cripes sakes...

Wayne, I was there in JANUARY. It is now AUGUST. In that short amount of time, I personally was able to write an article about one group of net collectors (education). I was able to purchase and send over a good amount of hand netting material. Mary, sick of the slow pace, decided to start the netting fund- Things came together where my article helped raise consciousness amongst hobbyists, and the net fund was able to ride on this wave. Plus, it was a really simple sell- they don't have net, we'll buy some and send it over. Anyone could participate.

After the fund drive, Mary purchased the net and I helped her with the shipping arrangements. I daresay I saved her (and us) a thousand dollars in shipping charges. I helped promote the fund, I helped ship the net, and it is now over in the Philippines.

Ferdie is now out training villages. The hand-netting material is being distributed.

Our next step is to get a different type of netting shipped over from Taiwan to Manila, the barrier netting. Things are moving more slowly than I'd like just because Ferdie is the point man, and he is in the field. I'd like him to get a trial shipment of barrier netting in to test it out in the field before we commit to buying a couple of rolls, just like he did with the two different mesh sizes of the hand netting material... Hopefully, we can do this by the end of the year.

The next article I will publish will be on the collectors in Coron. I intend to take the proceeds from that article and send them to the Philippines to help fund the barrier net purchase.

So I am doing what I think I can do, supporting what I think is right, putting my money where my mouth is. I wish I could do more. I've been trying to get Ferdie to set aside some time so we can discuss how to obtain funding for him. The next real thing we could do is work towards obtaining funding to cover the net trainings. As of this moment, they are doing it unpaid. How long do you think this can go on?

If we could get two teams together and fund them for a year, with a supply of barrier net and hand net, they could crisscross the Philippines and accomplish more than has been in the past decade. For a small fraction of the cost of prosecuting a Lacey Act case, the entire problem could be solved on the supply end.

I'll leave it to the reader as to which makes more sense fiscally and logically.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[flameangel1]

mkirda,
Thank You --YOURS is the sensible and responsible approach to fixing this problem !!!!!!
And it will work too,
If Wayne doesnt screw it, you and the rest of us up, with his cockamamy crap !!

 

[naesco]

Mike I applaud your efforts.

Get ready because within months you will see that industry in the Philippines and Indonesia will be scrambling to find experts to move there cyanide fishers to net caught fishers and to provide education and netting materials for them.

I do not believe for one second that the P/I industry is going to risk closure of their Canadian and American markets when it doesn't cost them one cent. They are all aware of REEForm, its demands for a committment to stop cyanide use and they are looking to the stateside industry for leadership and advice.

 

[mkirda]

Mike I applaud your efforts.

Wayne, you can keep your applause. I'm not the type to toot my own horn, but I felt like I had to give you some concrete examples of HOW YOU COULD ACTUALLY HELP DO SOMETHING/ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE.

Anyway, why you decided to hijack this thread is beyond me... This has nothing to do with Frank's numbers...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Dizzy is 100% correct as are the horriffic statistics presented by Frank.

I haven't seen collaborative evidence that shows the accuracy of the mortality conclusions that were presented in several journal articles.

 

[dizzy]

And I'm not sure I like naesco agreeing with me on anything. Whatever happened to Frank Lallo anyway?

 

[Frank Lallo]

Im here....just having trouble with the back do to the humidity levels.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Im here....just having trouble with the back do to the humidity levels.

HUMIDITY LEVELS>>>>IN LAS VEGAS? :lol:

 

[Frank Lallo]

Kalk,
Yea, it's called Monsoon season. Humidity which is usually 5 or 6% is up around 40 to 50% for July & August. Would you like to know what time I **** to?.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
Yea, it's called Monsoon season. Humidity which is usually 5 or 6% is up around 40 to 50% for July & August. Would you like to know what time I crap to?.

Im sorry, I had no idea......".just goes to show you" ......... in order to understand what its like to live under a rock..........one must ask someone to come out from under and explain just what its like under there.........you can crawl back under now Frank...... :wink: