Rover":tr8zmepf said:
Rover,
Your quote says a lot. I agree that reef fish can be a renewable resource, but not like corn or apples. I ascribe equal value and friendship to all of my pets whether cat, dog, or fish. The only real difference that see between pet fish, dogs and cats is that only the fishs' habitat is in decline.
I persist: is it okay to needlessly kill 9 out of 10 collected reef ornamental fish en route to the hobbyist if there are easy ways to improve things? If we continue to treat ornamental fish as a disposable resource we fail to be truly ethical. Wild caught reef fish are not being harvested in a sustainable way.
-Lee
SciGuy2":3m2i6isv said:
Like all generalities, this one has a bit of truth to it, but is not entirely true.
There are fish that are being harvested sustainably.
There are areas which are being subjected to sustainable levels of harvesting.
The ethical thing to do is get these fish from these areas.
Is this an easy thing to do?
No, not at all. But it *can* be done.
To me, this is the ethical thing to do. Or should I say, the most ethical...
Regards.
Mike Kirda
MaryHM":1aeyg6rq said:
Mary,
Please understand that I gave my fish away before I ever heard of Frank Lallo. I've been mulling over Peter's mortality numbers for several months with a scientist's skeptical eye. I know that the numbers most likely do not address the present condition of the industry. However, sadly, I must admit that the mortality numbers look realistic from what I see in my particular market. My LFSs are not largely not receptive to discussion on husbandy, net caught supply issues or anything else. Also we haven't even addressed the mortality numbers prior to the animals making it to the U.S. What are they? With or without cyanide? I'd really like to know the reef to hobbyist tank mortality numbers for cyanide and netcaught fish today. I suspect they are dismal.
A friend of mine in the LFS trade visited many importers several months ago. The stories he told of shipping pallets with buckets of dead fish sickened me.
You enjoy attacking my common sense and reason. Am I really so unreasonable to come to my personal conclusion based on these observations?
Sincerely,
Lee
mkirda":13i7436g said:
Mike,
Of all the collection areas in the world what % are being sustainably harvested? What % will change to sustainable harvest methods in the next 5 years? With climatic and anthrpomorphic considerations should we be harvesting for the ornamental trade at all? Has the marine hobby done enough through education and awareness training to offset the damage it has done and continues to do? Wouldn't an enlarged, improved zoo education program do much more to foster awareness and activism with less environmental impact than the hobby?
Sincerely,
Lee
SciGuy2":14nwd8gg said:
But they do in the Philippines...
I'm told that homemade Bagoong often uses damselfish...
Have not seen it for myself though.
Bagoong, for the uninitiated, is a fermented fish paste used for flavor food.
I've tried it exactly once: Much too strong of a fishy taste for me.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
This post is an extremist post. I'm tired of extremism from both sides. We all know there is a problem, and it needs fixed. However, there is no way on god's green earth that the "study" being floated is accurate in any way, if you spent any time in this industry you would know that. If everyone would quit having extremist views and just apply some common sense, progress could be made.
As far as your ethics question.. there are alot of garbage fish in the fw market as well, and alot of DOA/DAA and if you go to wholesalers you'll see alot of dead fw fish around. How many cardinal tetras do you think make it to aquariums vs. those collected?
As far as your ethics question.. there are alot of garbage fish in the fw market as well, and alot of DOA/DAA and if you go to wholesalers you'll see alot of dead fw fish around. How many cardinal tetras do you think make it to aquariums vs. those collected?
SciGuy2":3srr6u8k said:
Lee,
If I were to try to answer these questions, I probably could not do so with the degree of accuracy needed to satisfy myself. So, to the first two questions, I would have to say "I don't know."
However, I do believe that within five years, there will be a measureable impact in the Philippines, and in those areas that establish MPAs, the situation will be better.
Should the trade continue? Yes, I think so, *IF* it is done correctly. It can be done sustainably, and it can improve the lives of the collectors.
Has the marine hobby done enough? No, not even close. There are still way too many that are wooed by the 'cool' factor, bringing in nurse sharks and the like. There are room for improvements there, and probably always will be.
Zoo education programs? Hmm... Even the best zoo programs have done little to stop poaching for ivory and the bushmeat trade. Where there are resources, people will exploit them, Lee, especially where there are few, if any, alternative sources of income. They educate us, but we are not the ones killing gorillas or elephants.
The hobby has its highs and lows. People are also fickle, prefering wild-caught colonies of coral to farmed ones, even if they know that the farmed colony has a better chance of survival, was sustainably harvested, and provided a villager with a decent income.
Yet, we can produce a large percentage of certain types of fish locally.
We have Banggai Cardinal breeders across the country. We have people like you and me who spend a great deal of their time trying to educate people on how best to build a reef system. We have massive numbers of hobbyists doing coral propagation. In many ways, the hobby is pretty darn successful.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
dizzy":roos350o said:
No, I was specifically referring to the farmed colonies from the Solomons.
US-based coral propagation facilities are a different case, and not what I was referring to. Sorry I wasn't clearer here...
Good joke, BTW. :lol:
Regards.
Mike Kirda
There are more collection islands in the world with no impact by the hobby then there are islands nations with reefs this hobby has harmed {if there really are any}..........there are no fish in danger of over collection by number ........only by the means that we collect the fish..............Fiji ,Tonga , Phonope ,Solomons ,Vanuatu,Kenya, Red sea etc..........Buy fish from these islands and the intire hobby will be exculpated to your hearts content
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
