The Industry Behind the Hobby

[Anonymous]

Let's assume for a moment that MAC and the collection part of the hobby were magically "fixed" overnight. {POOF} All the net caught, certified cyanide free, high quality fish you could ever want. The Industry would still be in a pretty bad shape. Even if all the fish are caught under the best possible conditions, many would still only wate away and die in some wholesaler or LFS's tank. A few reasons for this that I can see.

1) The fish are viewed as a commodity and as long as they are selling the owner will keep buying.

2) The owner is simply not as informed as they could be. Either he's been running the store the same way for the last thirty years and hasn't kept up with advances in husbandry, or he's been too busy to notice that things could be remarkably better. Obviously healthy fish mean better business, and healthy fish need a healthy system. So no one sells or keps sick fish on purpose. So what kind of advice could you old salts give to those who are looking for ways to improve their systems, or procedures? What is the most important parts of a good fish room? (Hobbyist: What do you look for in a good fish room, what turns you off?) What methods of disease control are most effective? how important is equipment?

I think these sorts of discussions could be the real benefit of this forum. We can talk about MAC and the Phillipines all day long, but it's obvious no one is listening. How about we work to make sure the tanks on this side of the pond are ready for the fish once they've got it figured out?

 

[Anonymous]

Rover, you have touched on a HUGE pet peeve of mine, because this mentality is pervasive in America. ALL animals are viewed as commodoties, and the behavior you speak of permeates all walks of life, is seen in every animal-related hobby. I have seen this mentality not just with wildcaught saltwater animals, but with everything from pigs and horses to exotics and fish.

We see it, we like it, we want it, we get it, THEN we ask questions (usually when the animal is on its way out).

I'd love to see/hear this issue discussed more prominently, as well, and in my capacity as a "Crewmember" of wetwebmedia this is a philosophy I preach (and have always practiced), it's how I was brought up.

 

[JennM]

There's more to a great fish room than the stuff in it - it's the stuff that makes up the PEOPLE in a fish room that makes it great. Anybody can keep tanks clean, fish healthy, with some good maintenance practices, but it's the heart, soul and time along with blood sweat and tears that make a good LFS.

I've been lucky. I've dealt with some AWESOME stores over the years. The cruddy ones, I only ever visited once or twice. The best ones weren't always the fanciest, or even the cleanest (store-wise, not tank-wise), in fact some of the best places were little dingy holes in the wall, but the people, their knowledge, their insight and their caring was what stirred my own passion in the hobby.

But to answer the question.... my "advice"... keep it simple. Easy to manage, easy to clean systems - lots of swimming room for the fish - I HATE those little cubes that people use, where the fish can barely turn around - yeah you can accomodate a lot of fish, but a customer can't see it behave properly if it's stuffed into a 6" square cubicle in a large system. My systems are 20-longs and 75s plumbed together on a central system, and the reef is 3 x 110 g acrylic "low boys" (78" x 24" x 12") so there is lots of room, lots of flow, and people can get a good look. By far not the prettiest setup, but highly functional. Big skimmers, UV, mechanical and chemical on the sumps - we have a refugium on the reef sump, and it's crawling with pods and things, and so is the system.

Advice to shop owners: Ask questions - answer questions and listen to what the customer wants. If the customer is making choices that are inappropriate, gently steer them in the right direction. More business is earned if you invest the time, and occasionally say "no".

I was a hobbyist long before I took this on as a career choice. I still "think" like a hobbyist, and try to offer up what I liked to see when I was a shopper. I look forward to reading more input into this thread, to see what's working for others - once upon a time at RDO there was a seriously long thread (~20 pages last time I saw it) that a certain Kalkbreath started, about stores here in this area, and how he was going to build the store to end all stores , how ATL hobbyists were being ripped off, yadda yadda.... A lot of hot air passed through that thread, BUT also, a wealth of good advice, awesome suggestions and terrific hobbyist input also went into that thread, and it was read by many store operators, who also put some of the suggestions to work (myself included). Unfortunately, about 15 pages in, the thread got sumped, and I think it got purged, because once a while back I tried to find the thread and couldn't find it, but it happened circa March 2001.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Jenn--

What's something that you know now, that you didn't know before you started, that you wish you did?

 

[Anonymous]

Seamadian wrote: Rover, you have touched on a HUGE pet peeve of mine, because this mentality is pervasive in America. ALL animals are viewed as commodoties, and the behavior you speak of permeates all walks of life, is seen in every animal-related hobby. I have seen this mentality not just with wildcaught saltwater animals, but with everything from pigs and horses to exotics and fish.

Pervasive in all the world, America doesn't have the patend on that one.

 

[Kalkbreath]

There's more to a great fish room than the stuff in it - it's the stuff that makes up the PEOPLE in a fish room that makes it great. Anybody can keep tanks clean, fish healthy, with some good maintenance practices, but it's the heart, soul and time along with blood sweat and tears that make a good LFS.

I've been lucky. I've dealt with some AWESOME stores over the years. The cruddy ones, I only ever visited once or twice. The best ones weren't always the fanciest, or even the cleanest (store-wise, not tank-wise), in fact some of the best places were little dingy holes in the wall, but the people, their knowledge, their insight and their caring was what stirred my own passion in the hobby.

But to answer the question.... my "advice"... keep it simple. Easy to manage, easy to clean systems - lots of swimming room for the fish - I HATE those little cubes that people use, where the fish can barely turn around - yeah you can accomodate a lot of fish, but a customer can't see it behave properly if it's stuffed into a 6" square cubicle in a large system. My systems are 20-longs and 75s plumbed together on a central system, and the reef is 3 x 110 g acrylic "low boys" (78" x 24" x 12") so there is lots of room, lots of flow, and people can get a good look. By far not the prettiest setup, but highly functional. Big skimmers, UV, mechanical and chemical on the sumps - we have a refugium on the reef sump, and it's crawling with pods and things, and so is the system.

Advice to shop owners: Ask questions - answer questions and listen to what the customer wants. If the customer is making choices that are inappropriate, gently steer them in the right direction. More business is earned if you invest the time, and occasionally say "no".

I was a hobbyist long before I took this on as a career choice. I still "think" like a hobbyist, and try to offer up what I liked to see when I was a shopper. I look forward to reading more input into this thread, to see what's working for others - once upon a time at RDO there was a seriously long thread (~20 pages last time I saw it) that a certain Kalkbreath started, about stores here in this area, and how he was going to build the store to end all stores , how ATL hobbyists were being ripped off, yadda yadda.... A lot of hot air passed through that thread, BUT also, a wealth of good advice, awesome suggestions and terrific hobbyist input also went into that thread, and it was read by many store operators, who also put some of the suggestions to work (myself included). Unfortunately, about 15 pages in, the thread got sumped, and I think it got purged, because once a while back I tried to find the thread and couldn't find it, but it happened circa March 2001.

Jenn

The main problem I have with fish is that they fight........Most Angles, most Clowns..... Triggers....Male Anthias ....six lines....... .Algae blennies..........seem to beat the *** poop out of eachother if in the same tank{even if its 100 gallons} seems the more dividers we place in the tanks the less shreaded fins.......so Small cubes do have at times, an advantage to the well being of the fish ...........Oh and about that hot air.......I single handedly changed the LFS scene in Atlanta..Were getting ready to finish that dream store...... .stop by and see what we........are building now. :wink: Ill post pictures in a week or so.......I dont think there is a coral room like what we are building in the world 8)

 

[Anonymous]

Pinch me, this can't be true, I'm agreeing with Kalk. Divided tanks/cubes do have their place in a LFS. False broomtails aren't what customers usually buy. They don't come into your shop looking for a fix-er-upper fish. Oh, its just minor fin damage, with only 1 eye, it'll be fine, I'll take it.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Pinch me, this can't be true, I'm agreeing with Kalk. Divided tanks/cubes do have their place in a LFS. False broomtails aren't what customers usually buy. They don't come into your shop looking for a fix-er-upper fish. Oh, its just minor fin damage, with only 1 eye, it'll be fine, I'll take it.

SEE.........Im not wrong all the time!..Now that we agree on this one issue ..........Our friendship will last forever.........or at least until the next" killer green seaweed" or "eel rubbing" thread returns :wink: "I dont mean to ruffle peoples feathers.........I want them to rethink just why it is they are wearing feathers in the first place?"

 

[Anonymous]

And the killer green sea weed thread was amusing, Kalk.

 

[flameangel1]

Glenn,
You asked Jenn, but one of the first things I learned as a shop, versus hobbyist, was you can not keep a coral reef tank looking as balanced and as nice as a home tank !!! This one drove me nuts, until I learned it. All looks perfect color wise/height and width wise etc and then customer buys the centerpiece etc - you fill the "hole" and tank looks like hell again.
Now, finally, I know to think like a customer and what draws their attention, instead of as a "whole picture".

Also, never ever put all your fish holding tanks on one system !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have NO disease problems and have not in years, but, I attribute this to good suppliers, no more than 2 tanks per fish system, compatability with tank mates in a community type situation, and lowest possible stress levels. This may cost more in setting up the systems, but losses are very rare anymore. I use no medications, copper or uv either. Fish tanks range from 20 longs to 40 gallons and I would NEVER use those cubicle type systems. Much too much stress on any fish !!!!

 

[flameangel1]

deleted due to double entry --hmm how??

 

[Anonymous]

What about feeding? We tend to over feed at my shop, and have noticed an improvement in the fish, but it's much harder to keep the tanks sparkling clean at the same time. We use lots of garlic, fresh seafood, and good quality flake.

Those of you who don't use UV. What did you base your decision on?

I agree that oversized tanks help as well. Ours range from 25 to 90 gallons with rarely any more than three fish per tank. However it does cut back a bit on selection, as the system gets "full" faster.

 

[JennM]

Respectfully, Gresham & Kalk I do think that cubes have a "place" in wholesale operations, but I don't think they are conducive to good husbandry in a long-term situation. People get flamed for keeping a tang in a 20 gallon tank... :roll: A wholesaler's setup is much different than a retail shop - in a wholesale facility, functionality is the key - all the algae blennies in one spot, all the coral beauties in another - sure you can't tank 50 coral beauties together, so cubes have a place. In a retail situation, we're dealing with people shopping, browsing, watching and observing creatures before they buy, and IMO they need the most similar situation to their own home tank to make those observations in, as is possible. I've got a few fishes that have "lived" in my shop for over a year - I can't imagine having kept them in cubes. Lots of swimming space, hiding places, and diverse tank-mates is not only more healthy, but much more appealing to the customer. Can't see it swim in a little box, and as to compatibility, I guess that comes with experience, that one gets to know what jives with what else, and that also makes me more helpful to customers trying to choose fish that will get along with what they already have etc. (Psssst Kalk... Lunare wrasses eat snails, shrimp and hermits.... ) I use reference books regularly to evaluate compatibility before I place specimens together, and I've learned that the odd individual will "break the rules"...

I have 20 tanks on my FO system. 12 x 20 long and 8 x 75 gallons. It's easy to keep my algae blennies (for example) one to a tank, and they day I sell more than 20 in a week or two, that's when I build a bigger store I don't have a problem with "broom tails", I pick and choose my livestock carefully, and I am careful who I mix with whom in my systems. In the event of a conflict, an injured fish can recuperate in my hospital system in the back, it its own 15 gallon "sink" (we use plastic laundry tubs back there) and heal unmolested. I watch my livestock, and any fish that appears stressed, is relocated to another tank before it becomes an issue.

Oh and Kalk, I didn't accuse you of blowing (all) the hot air in that thread - if my memory serves, you were asking the questions not answering them - but egos notwithstanding there was a huge wealth of information exchanged in it, and I wish it had been archived, because if one could sort past the personalities (my own included) who chimed in their never-humble opinions, there was a lot of good and constructive stuff in it. IMO a store is always a "work in progress", so keep on upgrading - I'm doing some upgrading too, albeit on a much smaller scale I'm sure. There is a large hobbyist community in Atlanta, and for the most part, a fairly knowledgable one, and I think there is plenty of room for good stores in this area.

Judy, I hear ya on the coral tank issue - here's what I did/am doing... I have a 120 display tank, which is "my toy".... I do not sell out of that tank, and in fact many of the creatures in it were gifts from friends and customers - coral frags, home-bred fish (banggai cardinals), a huge sally lightfoot, etc. I place my specimens in the tank to illustrate the placement of a given specimen, so people can see what it will look like "at home". My coral tanks of "for sale" stuff are very plain. And it's funny how tidying up and rearranging the corals can bring up interest in a piece that's been around for a while... "Is that new?"... "No, it's been here for 3 months..." LOL! One can also look down from the top at my coral tanks, and that's a perspective that many like, especially when viewing sps or clams ... we're ramping up our clam/sps tank right now, new lights etc.

Keep covers on the fish tanks - we use that stuff called "eggcrate" or plastic light diffuser. No bummer like a jumper It's also handy for keeping kids and ice cream cones out of the tanks too

We feed all kinds of food - lots of variety in frozen foods, flakes, pellets. We add garlic and vitamin C, and I find that garlic helps stimulate a feeding response. We love to use PE Mysis, even the pickiest new arrival will usually take to this right away. When we feed, we make a "soup" out of some reef water, an assortment of dry and frozen foods, the vitamins and garlic, let it all "steep" for a few minutes, and feed. Predators get an extra ration of meaty foods, squid, clams etc., and herbivores are supplemented with nori on clips.

Jenn

 

[flameangel1]

on the feeding issue-- I may have to feed 8 to 10 times a day, so that the customers can see the fish eating, but I also know this means to change water every day on those occasions also.

On the UV issue-- I like my tanks to have pods/worms/baby starfish etc in the live sand, and using an experiment with UV, showed me how fast one loses them with it. As I have not had any disease problems/ick etc for so long, guess it isnt useful anyway.

On a display tank, no- I have none due to "real estate space", all tanks are set up as close to homestyle as possible. Just not as pretty and balanced looking, as they change constantly. I use 75 gallon tanks and a 135 for the coral tanks. Live rock is also set up in 75 gallon tanks , as per how a customer would stack the rock in their homes.
As to dealing with the fish holding tanks, they are set up as a customer would have a fowler tank at home (but with much of the live rock in the sumps ) and I never use nets for catching fish. Being a long time animal person, knowing how an animal/fish etc, lives and reacts within a given situation, makes for the experience to tank them with appropriate and comforting tank mates.

 

[MaryHM]

Here's the one thing I learned about wholesale systems. "Au natural" is not the best way to go all of the time. We only did corals for about 3 years, and that system is run with deep sand bed, live rock, and skimmer. Runs like a charm! So we thought, "Hey, let's do it with the fish system". We dumped a full pallet of sand into our monsterous sump, about 3 tons of live rock, a big a$$ skimmer...and watched our fish constantly break out with crap. We couldn't medicate because the rock and sand would pull it out. So we finally resorted to taking our 9000 gallon system and splitting it in half. The half that is completely bare has been running like a charm for about 6 months now with no disease (unless they come in with it). We think about the daunting task of removing a pallet of sand and tons of live rock from our 4' deep in ground sump, but then get tired just thinking about it! That system is currently only holding stars, anemones, crabs, shrimp, and a few damsels. Since I can't get hardly any net caught fish it works out, I guess. But eventually the sand/rock will be removed and we'll put the entire fish system back on line. Bare tanks all the way!

 

[Anonymous]

Rover, you have touched on a HUGE pet peeve of mine, because this mentality is pervasive in America. ALL animals are viewed as commodoties, and the behavior you speak of permeates all walks of life, is seen in every animal-related hobby. I have seen this mentality not just with wildcaught saltwater animals, but with everything from pigs and horses to exotics and fish.

Pervasive in all the world, America doesn't have the patend on that one.

I stand corrected. I feel that I can only speak from my experience, and (at this juncture in time at least) I am hardly a "world traveler". Someday, eh?

 

[dizzy]

Here's the one thing I learned about wholesale systems. "Au natural" is not the best way to go all of the time. We only did corals for about 3 years, and that system is run with deep sand bed, live rock, and skimmer. Runs like a charm! So we thought,

Mary I was just wondering if you ever had flatworms in your natural system? If so how do you go about ridding them from the system? Also do you use copper to treat for parasites in your fish only system? Are fish that are treated in copper typically shipped out in water that contains copper? Do you still use hyposalinity? If fish are kept in lowered salinity, are they also shipped out in it?

 

[MaryHM]

Flatworms- Never in the old fish system, occasionally in one halide tank in the coral building. They seem to come and go, but are never out of control. When they are around, we give the corals in that tank a fast freshwater dip before they are shipped out.

Copper- We used to never use it, but now we do in very low levels. Fish are never packed out in system water, so no they are not packed out in copper water.

Salinity- No, we don't use hyposalinity. Our specific gravity is about 1.021 for the fish and the pack water.

 

[JennM]

Judy, I fly without a net too ... Except sometimes for venomous species like lions. I use a plastic specimen cup and "herd" the fish into it. Much less stressful, much less mechanical injury, no chance of cheek spines, gills or fins being caught.

We have a 40 watt UV on our 350 g coral system, and I have oodles of pods, worms, mini stars.... we also have a refugium on it. I don't keep a lot of fish in it, maybe a tang or two, they like the length of the tanks, and I have "Twiggy" the yellow tang whom I plucked out of a tank I began to maintain - Twiggy had severe HLLE, and he's healthy now but scarred, his dorsal fin won't grow back - but he's got good colour, eats like a champ and is othewise healthy now - he's my "poster child" for Zoecon and Nori

Jenn

 

[Kalkbreath]

It seem , that the more animals you have to contend with.......the more difficult the aspect of "holding the fish and corals becomes. Our new corals system will house over 1000 corals ,all with retail prices over 40 bucks......}I bet I have more red welsophillia then any of the wholesalers on this board} As for fish I usually bring in thirty algae blennies at a time...and while I have thirty cubes for small fish{thirty gallon cubes} I also offer ten other kinds of blennies ?{all of which algea blennies love to kick around!} so Yes, having each fish its own 75 gallon tank would be grand.....but this would mean 100 tanks just for blennies? And thats not to mention Triggers , groupers YES LUNARE WRASSES JEN, eels all of which you ought not house with blennies.....? YELLOW TANGS? I have about forty in a 200 gallon tank? if I keep less then thirty together ......the shredding begins. Keep one to a tank and they become so mean that if a customer buys one thats been housed without another tang......."it does not work well with others "in the customers tank..Even damsels are almost impossible to keep for ripping eachother to shreds? How do other stores keep say..... twenty damsels in one tank? Its only orange tails ,green cromis that I can even begin to house in a group.......and even then its only Palu and Solomon orange tails and small green {large green cromis pick teams }? Oh! and one last thing.......do you know why in the movie "nemo" you never saw more then two clownfish together at any one time in the move? Because if there had been ....the PG rating would surely been lost , due to the horrible result of having thirty clownfish that dont know each other together:wink: