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MaryHM

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John,

Missed this one

But when the suggestion is accompanied by the accusation of fraud, one wonders if the accuser has some axe to grind.

You're exactly right. I do have an axe to grind. I have an axe to grind against any individual or organization that is doing a disservice to industry reform in anyway. I think the flip side of this coin is:

But when an organization offers up such vague and misleading information, one wonders if they have something to hide.
 

clarionreef

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Really John,
Mary has a point.
What did MAC think real reform players would do as they ran a program palatable to the mass public, the media and other shallower interests??
Making instant "credibility"available on the market is a sharp slap in the face to those struggling for and holding out for the real thing.
Killing off the real reform figures seems a de-facto result of the mass market proposal. Not mass results mind you...but mass market.
Now Mary,
There, there now and all you reform types. Just lay down and die for the good of the trade why don't you? Stop pointing out that the emperor has no clothes! You're not being patriotic to the industry!
Steve
 

JennM

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From the MAC brochures sent to me by MAC for the Atlanta Reef Club (you know, the one with a dozen yellow tangs and 20+clownfish in a tank on the cover...)

MAC (sm) International Third-Party Certification

-Provides the means to verify responsible, environmentally sound industry operators and healthy marine aquarium organisms

This doesn't say WILL provide - it says that it already does -- and I received these brochures MONTHS ago. Since there is no CDT or other "verifications" in place, IMO that's misleading, at the very least...

Why buy MAC (sm) Certified Ornamentals?

-Harvested from collection areas that are managed to maintain reef health and productivity
-Caught using non-destructive methods
-Handled using methods to optimize healthy
-Held and transported in ways to minimize stress
-Available to you in an unbroken chain of MAC (sm) Certified qualty....from Reef to Retail

There's that "non-destructive methods" thing -- that comes up a few times in the brochure -- umm and that's verified how again?

The rest of the brochure is a bunch of feel good propaganda, that honestly sounds pretty good, if one assumes that there are policies and procedures to back it all up...

The brochure was funded by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation and the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation.

Jenn
 

MaryHM

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Ok Jenn. I guess we now have to assume that poor understaffed/underfunded/overworked/overwhelmed MAC has now given out unintentional misleading information both on their website and on their hobbyist brochures. Now the question is what are they going to do about this accidental misinformation they are feeding to the public. Since John says it isn't intentional, I expect we will soon see a retraction and apology from the MAC camp.

(Please insert a heavy sarcastic tone when reading above post. It's good not being tethered to the moderator behavorial rules anymore!!)
 

naesco

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JennM said:
From the MAC brochures sent to me by MAC for the Atlanta Reef Club (you know, the one with a dozen yellow tangs and 20+clownfish in a tank on the cover...)

8O

Mary you have never been tethered! :lol:
 

MaryHM

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Hey, at least the yellow tangs and clownfish are saltwater fish. The old navagational buttons on the MAC website were DISCUS until I pointed out the flaw to them!! 8O
 

JennM

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I count 17 yellow tangs (which aren't MAC certified, I'd bet :D ) and at least 50 clowns - kinda like playing, "Where's Waldo", plus an assortment of other fish. Looks kinda like a tank one would see at a trade show - packed to the hilt with stuff just for a weekend, then sold to the highest bidder at the end of the show. David was very surprised when I told him what I thought of that image, and he'd never noticed it.

If they pay that little attention to DETAIL like that, then it does not inspire confidence when it comes to huge details...

Here's a link to the picture that my friend Ron scanned and posted to another board some months back...

Mac%20tank.JPG


Sadly, the post generated nothing but a chuckle, pondering whether the tank owner might have had an algae problem *g* but there was no meaningful discussion at all about MAC. I don't think hobbyists by and large, CARE. At least Internet surfing hobbyists don't, but they tend to be better informed than the 71% of hobbyists that go it alone and don't use online resources or aquarium societies... wonder what they think? They have no source of outside information beyond what MAC may be feeding them...

The brochure itself had no date on it but the letter was dated Summer 2002 and the newsletter was 2nd or 3rd quarter 2002 so that VANILLA info has been circulating for about a year that we can determine...

Jenn
 

mkirda

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JennM":36ui4yf9 said:
I count 17 yellow tangs (which aren't MAC certified, I'd bet :D ) and at least 50 clowns -

Probably better than 50 cleaner wrasses...
Those clowns look to be one of the tank-raised varieties anyway. I have no problem with the MAC certifying these {grin}.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

JennM

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I saw no cleaner wrasses - I've got the actual brochure here -- I had the same thought about the clowns, can you say, ORA!? (I'd have no problem certifying those either!) There are som various and sundry anthias, damsels and a flsher wrasse or two....

I tought the huge green Goniopora sp. on the left was a nice touch ;)

Jenn
 
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I've been out of the loop for several weeks, but feel compelled to comment.

I agree with John. I find the use of argumentative, aggressive words such as "fraud" counterproductive to the process of environmental reform. In order to foster change we need to build relationships, not tear them down.

-Lee
 
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SciGuy2":1jmad414 said:
I've been out of the loop for several weeks, but feel compelled to comment.

I agree with John. I find the use of argumentative, aggressive words such as "fraud" counterproductive to the process of environmental reform. In order to foster change we need to build relationships, not tear them down.

-Lee

Yeah but when its one "honest" mistake after another one tends to think less of the person or organization. How many "honest" mistakes does it take before it starts to become fradulent.
 

clarionreef

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Friends,
The thing worse than being accused of something...is being guilty of it.
When police find wrong doing should they just take people directly to jail and not accuse them of anything out of respect for their feelings?
This ain't a guppy club forum, its a forum for many whos lives are invested in the issue.
Steve
PS. It is not pleasant at times, I grant you. None have been the victims of more witch hunting, slander, threats and false accusations over the years than I on this issue. Its tough to tell the truth and be villified for it. Its even tougher to be villified and innocent .
 

MaryHM

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Amen, brother Steve!! It's really easy for people who don't have their entire life dependent upon this industry to tell us what we should and shouldn't do/say. I have a really hard time taking advice about how I should respond to industry issues from people who don't handle livestock daily for a living. This is why I had a hard time with the former AMDA pres being an aquarium maintainence guy. Yes, bless him (I guess) for taking a position no one else wanted, but who can take someone seriously that doesn't have to constantly receive and hold livestock?? How can someone who is not having to make weekly (or daily) decisions about what to buy, where to buy it from, how to keep it alive until it's sold, etc... tell us how to present our case?? [/quote]
 

naesco

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MaryHM":112lzrg8 said:
Amen, brother Steve!! It's really easy for people who don't have their entire life dependent upon this industry to tell us what we should and shouldn't do/say. I have a really hard time taking advice about how I should respond to industry issues from people who don't handle livestock daily for a living.

Steve, is that you?

How can someone who is not having to make weekly (or daily) decisions about what to buy, where to buy it from, how to keep it alive until it's sold, etc... tell us how to present our case??
[/quote]

I will tell you how Mary. He is the customer!
You can scream your heads off about all the issues and every one here is the best of breed, but ultimately it will be the educated customers who will determine issues like cyanide and the USL and cleaner wrasse, cleaner wrasse, cleaner wrasse :wink:
Every day more and more reefers throw back their dead or dying tangs, triggers, angels and butterflys at the LFS that sold them.
One day soon, industry CEOs, like other CEOs of companies that polluted our environment will be called to task for the contribution that have made to the cyanide trade. There will be fines and the case of those who fraudulently advertised that the fish they sell are cyanide free, jail terms.
Just my opinion.
 
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naesco":eoouloco said:
MaryHM":eoouloco said:
Amen, brother Steve!! It's really easy for people who don't have their entire life dependent upon this industry to tell us what we should and shouldn't do/say. I have a really hard time taking advice about how I should respond to industry issues from people who don't handle livestock daily for a living.

Steve, is that you?

How can someone who is not having to make weekly (or daily) decisions about what to buy, where to buy it from, how to keep it alive until it's sold, etc... tell us how to present our case??

I will tell you how Mary. He is the customer!
You can scream your heads off about all the issues and every one here is the best of breed, but ultimately it will be the educated customers who will determine issues like cyanide and the USL and cleaner wrasse, cleaner wrasse, cleaner wrasse :wink:
Every day more and more reefers throw back their dead or dying tangs, triggers, angels and butterflys at the LFS that sold them.
One day soon, industry CEOs, like other CEOs of companies that polluted our environment will be called to task for the contribution that have made to the cyanide trade. There will be fines and the case of those who fraudulently advertised that the fish they sell are cyanide free, jail terms.
Just my opinion.[/quote]

I think the whole key to steves point was American "MARINE DEALERS" Association. A person running a maint service generally has no clue about what goes on outside of the maint business. I know, I have dont both.
 

JennM

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You can scream your heads off about all the issues and every one here is the best of breed, but ultimately it will be the educated customers who will determine issues like cyanide and the USL and cleaner wrasse, cleaner wrasse, cleaner wrasse

Oh how I wish this was true. REALITY is, that only a very FEW hobbyists ever choose to educate themselves *independently* of their LFS. These message boards, while they present the appearance of hobbyists wanting to educate themselves and others, in actual fact they represent only a tiny fraction of the hobbyist community at large.

I founded the local reef club, and I recruited most of the members, or the person who recruited them, was recruited by me. I push the club HARD to each of my customers - but in actual fact, only about 20 % of my customers are members, and some of them only joined the club to get the club discount at my (and others) shop. One can safely assume that I have a higher proportion of members than most of the other stores in the area, because I'm one of the newest stores around, and I push the club DAILY. Other stores are supportive, but no other owners/employees attend with the regularity that I do, so they don't have the "emotional investment" that I do, and so they aren't pushing for membership like I am, so less than 20 % of their clients are members too. This area has thousands of hobbyists, enough to keep some pretty high -end stores in business, but there are only about 60 paid up club members. Fewer than those frequent the boards, and fewer still attend a board like this one (although I saw one of our members browsing here yesterday...). Other than the "tang police" or the occasional flame about somebody who put a Mandarin in a 10 gallon tank, the information is just not out there in hobbyists' face, and some who have heard "rumours" about cyanide think that was phased out in the 70s. Many are SHOCKED when I discuss the issues with them.

Unlike those of us with a vested interest, and those with a passion that causes them to live and breathe for their tank, the vast majority of retail customers are NOT aware, and they don't care either. They just want the prettiest fish at the best price. It's sad but it's true. Right or wrong they take all their advice from whatever LFS they land in when they begin - I see this every week when I get another new customer running an undergravel fliter on their marine tank, or a canister filter (or both) with 4 inches of Puka shell as subtrate...

I'd be willing to bet that there are MANY LFS OWNERS/OPERATORS and staff who aren't very well aware of the issues, they just accept things like increased mortality as a fact of life in this business, and carry on, since you get the same "quality" and stock list from all of the big wholesalers - "it couldn't possibly be such a large scale problem - somebody would DO something about it"....

We need to think beyond our little bubble here in the online community and get back into the real world - most don't know, and don't care and until we shout a little louder and make sure we're heard, nothing's going to change. I have changed what I can, thusfar, and work each day to educate all who will listen, and make suitable choices when I buy livestock. That's what we ALL need to do. Sooner or later as more catch on, change will follow.

Jenn
 
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MaryHM":1bsgzl8x said:
Amen, brother Steve!! It's really easy for people who don't have their entire life dependent upon this industry to tell us what we should and shouldn't do/say. I have a really hard time taking advice about how I should respond to industry issues from people who don't handle livestock daily for a living. This is why I had a hard time with the former AMDA pres being an aquarium maintainence guy. Yes, bless him (I guess) for taking a position no one else wanted, but who can take someone seriously that doesn't have to constantly receive and hold livestock?? How can someone who is not having to make weekly (or daily) decisions about what to buy, where to buy it from, how to keep it alive until it's sold, etc... tell us how to present our case??

If it is so offensive to the professionals to listen to the unwashed hobbyist then why take the dialogue outside of the hallowed halls of the American Marinelife Dealers Association? Why bring the discussion here, to a hobbyist based public forum?

What if the MAC staff is currently saying: "I have a really hard time taking advice from people who just wholesale livestock and do not work with public policy every day"?
 

MaryHM

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I don't mind at all when hobbyists share their input on industry issues, in fact all I've ever done is encourage it. Let's think back folks- who brought these issues to the public in a major starting back in 1999 on these boards??? ME. Who runs the ONLY website dedicated to industry issues??? ME. Who started this forum??? ME. So don't even act like I'm not interested in the hobbyists input. What I'm not interested in is people who are not in the industry telling me what words I should or shouldn't use to describe a situation that affects my daily life. I've walked in the hobbyist's shoes- how many of you have walked in mine?? With that said, I'm going to reiterate how important I think hobbyists are in the whole scheme of reform. Unfortunately, like Jenn said, the numbers are TINY. Not to be braggy, but because of my efforts I think the number is quite a bit larger now than it was a few years ago. However, that education is pretty limited to the internet and a small percentage of hobbyists are on these boards regularly. I respect hobbyists opinions on the issues- whether they are the same as mine or not. I don't respect someone telling me specificially what I should or shouldn't say- especially one who don't understand my situation. See the difference?
 

mkirda

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JennM":37ihzbh4 said:
Other than the "tang police" or the occasional flame about somebody who put a Mandarin in a 10 gallon tank, the information is just not out there in hobbyists' face

Jenn,

One problem is that the so-called tang police can come across as such zealots that they are viewed as complete nut-cases. Same with Mandarin sages. For all the collective experience hobbyist's have, there is always someone who will have a mandarin in a 10 gallon and claim success for 'years', prompting others to try to duplicate their feat. Even though we know that most tanks need to be around 75 gallons and 'established' before they will support a single mandarinfish...

Wanna try Goniopora? {grin}

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

JennM

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As a matter of fact, I've kept a Goniopora alive and thriving for about a year now - it was a "box filler" in a coral order with a supplier I stopped ordering from - even though it was on my "NEVER SEND" list -- and I am happy to report it's not receding either, and does very well on Cyclop-Eeze and Kent Zooplex - perhaps because the organisms in those foodstuffs contain a similar chain of fatty acids -- but that's another post, for another forum. Haven't sold that Goni because everyone who has shown interest in it recoils when I tell them how care-intensive it is.... but I digress...

The fact remains that the percentage of hobbyists who educate themselves beyond the walls of their LFS is limited. VERY limited, even despite the best efforts of people such as myself, who work the "front lines" with the public every day. No matter what *I* do, the hobbyist who doesn't want to know better, will go into another shop and fall in love with that Mandarin, and bring it to me 3 months later when it's all emaciated, to "save" it, even though I've told them why I don't stock them. I'll order one for somebody with a suitable setup for one, but I don't carry them.

So knowing this, that only less than 1/3 of hobbyists at best, give more than a passing interest in industry issues, it's important to keep that in mind when considering what all the slick advertising will mean to the casual hobbyist when he sees a shiny sticker and important looking certificate. All is not always as it seems, but people may not think or care to dig deeper.

Jenn
 

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