Industry must fund reform itself.

[Anonymous]

You do of course realize that Industry won't actually fund it, much the same as a business doesn't really pay taxes. 100% of a businesses revenue comes from their customer base. So essentially, the hobbyist must fund reform.

 

[naesco]

You do of course realize that Industry won't actually fund it, much the same as a business doesn't really pay taxes. 100% of a businesses revenue comes from their customer base. So essentially, the hobbyist must fund reform.

You are absolutely correct Rover.
REEForm states that industry must fund reform and provide funding for the training, education and materials for net caught fishing in the Philippines and Indonesia.

This soct to the hobbyist represents a mere fraction of a cent per fish.

In return the Islands of the Philippines and Indonesia are saved from the destruction of cyanide. Industry saves money it now loses to DOA fish who have lost the fight against cyanide poisoning and hobbyist get healier fish.

But industry continues to deny there is a problem and has not realized what you have.
Instead of fighting REEForm, industry should be organizing itself with its P/I comrades and coming forth with the plan and timeline that REEForm has requested.That plan includes the necessary funding for net training and materials.

 

[clarionreef]

Rove,
The issue of 'reform of the trade' has in fact been funded...many times.
Funding... by itself does nothing. Performance that contributes to better industry performance [and image] is totally determined by WHO manages it and HOW.
If the industry actually raised funding...then industry would have the say-so in how it was spent. Industry people I know [especially LA wholesalers ] hate to waste and lose money so perhaps the results could be very different.
The aquarium trade has been chastised fore its near total lack of support for reform. That may well be a fair charge...However, if the investment were to come from industry itself, I'll betcha things would play out differently.
If seen as a business investment...poor results in field work, training, materials distribution, follow-up etc. are inexcusable and intolerable.
Any notions on how to enlist the trade and industry in the support of its own salvation? [ if not the AMDA NET FUND already in existance]
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Any notions on how to enlist the trade and industry in the support of its own salvation?

I've mentioned it before. At some point in time a company will come along that will think operating as a "green wholesaler" will be a good business model. It will then be marketed to the hobbyist heavily and at great expense, and at the expense of exposing the under belly of the goings on of some other wholesalers. This has to come from a business. And lots of money needs to be spent both on the structure and organization of the business and on the marketing level of by passing the LFS's and getting the consumers themselves to come into the various shops and asking for "XX's" fish. This would obviously require endorsements and spokespeople and an actual marketing campaign. Similar to MAC but for profit I guess. If it is successful, others will jump on board and then things would be kept on the level through competition.

I've seen it happen with dog food, don't see why it couldn't work here.

 

[clarionreef]

Rover,
Unknown to the public...there was an attempt to institutionalize and fund a vertically integrated green mega import marinefish business via the research and consultation of the CCIF. [ Conservation and Community Investment Forum]. They made a splash at the Orlando Marine Ornamentals Conference some years back and impressed everyone who was not in the trade.
They were searching for a home for 8 million dollars of Packard investors and thought of taking over the reform wing of the trade and giving the cyanide importers a run for their money.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

What happened?

 

[clarionreef]

What happened?
Nothing happened. The predictable and inevitable failure of course that results from eggheads trying to understand things from the outside looking in. No groups adressing the industrys reform needs ever hire anyone from inside the industry. It seems to be a rule every single one of them have had from the beginning!
They spend most of their time and money trying to understand the basic terms and procedures and no matter how smart they may be in their original field...they are rank beginners in ours. They undertook dozens, perhaps hundreds of interviews to try and get a handle on it. They went to dinner with many. They went to some conferences. They spent a lot of time reading. I spent time with them and tried to get them to come see a Philippine shipment come in...and get wet. [ they were nearby here in S.F. ] Despite several dates tentative dates to come see something real...the afterhours schedule [5:00 o'clock] always made it inconvenient.
Last I heard, they were playing with a National Park project in Indonesia.
This industry not only has to clean house because it is irresponsible not to...it must become involved in it because only it can understand itself well enough and actually do the job! Fooling and fibbing to outside groups is cute but hey...the problems didn't go away! We can't fool each other they way we did the CCIF, MAC et al.
Expecting non aquarium people to reform the aquarium trade is silly and ineffectual. Yes they may get to play in the water and act like divers and collectors but pleaassseee. Give me a break.
Steve...
PS. Word on the street...104th St. in LA, "Hey guys, MAC is going to take 5-8 years to train half the divers in the easy areas in the Philippines!"
"Oh yeah? Sweet...thats what we're counting on!"
Full credit for lip service and token efforts at reform and slow, slow motion implementation of unprofessional and non-commercial methodologies.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

What happened?

Rover,

Funding itself can make a huge difference if the different stakeholders of the industry unify efforts and work together towards the same goal. People that have been involved in net training programs do have backgrounds that are compatible with the tasks and issues that need to be tackled.

In many occasions funding has been secured, but other links of the trade didn't and do not respond as we can see today. To make it more explicit how much money the AMDA net training program has collected since the campaign started? I see that Mary, with her sincere effort, collected around $US4,000. What % is hobbyists? and what % is importers and retailers? Is it a good response from an industry that makes millions a year?

In the Philippines case, it has been a pattern that the different groups or individuals working to find solutions instead of trying to help each other to make things easier and achieve the common goal they do work against each other. Some trying to protect themselves the other trying to desctroy credibility and reputations by misinforming and misleading people.

Lee,

I think that the salesman was not good enough to make a good sale.

Jaime
[[/b]

 

[mkirda]

To make it more explicit how much money the AMDA net training program has collected since the campaign started?

Steve, this is actually a good point.
Could you post the numbers so far?

Some trying to protect themselves the other trying to destroy credibility and reputations by misinforming and misleading people.

Omigod...

Pot.
Kettle.
Black.

Wow.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Guys,
The AMDA NET FUND just getting off the ground [ with the revamping of our newsletter and website ] has already just under $400.00
So far it only has exposure on reefs.org and reefcentral.
We expect to put on a charm offensive at MACNA and begin raising the barrier net money in ernest.
Letters will go out to all the trade and to manufacturers especially who sell products enabled by the trade in wildcaught fish.
The first bundles of barrier netting [ the correct one! ] is enroute to me now.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Funding itself can make a huge difference if the different stakeholders of the industry unify efforts and work together towards the same goal. People that have been involved in net training programs do have backgrounds that are compatible with the tasks and issues that need to be tackled.

Sounds an awful lot like expecting Honda and Toyota to "work together" to develop an alternative fuel vehicle. It ain't gonna happen.

To make it more explicit how much money the AMDA net training program has collected since the campaign started? I see that Mary, with her sincere effort, collected around $US4,000. What % is hobbyists? and what % is importers and retailers? Is it a good response from an industry that makes millions a year?

I'm still befuzzled as to why there is this big expectation that eveyone is going to empty their pockets because there is a problem. Hobbyist are already the end consumers in this industry, now they are also supposed to be involved in Research and Development? Do you know of any other Industry that is looking to develop better, more efficient products to increase their bottom line, and is waiting on their customers to foot the bill, all the while complaining about their lack of concern?

Exporters, Importers, Wholesalers, and LFS's are all looking for a better product to sell. One that will make them more money, one that will keep more of their customers happy, one that won't die on their shelves or in transit, one that won't jeopardize the future of their business. Sound familiar? Who should foot that bill? The ones who stand to make the money off of it! But it's not about "Saving the reefs" or "Helping the poor fishermen", or any other feel good environotion. It's about R&D and Product Development, just like in any other Industry. You want the Industry to get Involved? Stop asking for donations and start looking for Investors, that's the way this country works.

 

[clarionreef]

Rover,
I would certainly like to agree with you but the far flung nature of the investment in a foreign enterprise has stymied this usual remedy.
There are a few who have indeed invested in their own enterprises in Manila and they are free to clean up anytime they want. The export trade is fiercely competitive and it looks like these investors hardly like to slow down to revamp the freelance diver-supply system. What you suggest means dealing only with in-house divers of accountability and steady net supplies. That runs counter to the prevailing notion of born to run and loyal to none. Get all variety from everywhere WITHOUT investing in the field stations. Fish come from the field stations...not Manila.
Some take a low road, more take the middle...none take the high road it would appear.
Handicapping an export business with lower variety than possible keeps them for going all netcaught.
A visionary with money has not appeared on the scene. I agree with you that it could happen and is possible. But it means a better quality of people need to emerge from a culture dominated by a system that was corrupt for so long that it lost the meaning of idealism.
I would love to do what you suggest and could do it. I have the Manila people and the field people that would stick to the plan. [or be fired]. But alas, 20 years in dealing in netcaught fishes hardly amasses the fortunes enjoyed by the dealers free of such a handicap.
You know any "green white knights" that wanna clean up this business?
Steve

 

[kylen]

"Sounds an awful lot like expecting Honda and Toyota to "work together" to develop an alternative fuel vehicle. It ain't gonna happen" - Rover

Well it is happening, by the way. D-C, Ford and Honda are all investors in a company, Ballard Power Systems, that is currently developing fuel cell technology for zero emission vehicles.

"Hobbyist are already the end consumers in this industry, now they are also supposed to be involved in Research and Development? Do you know of any other Industry that is looking to develop better, more efficient products to increase their bottom line, and is waiting on their customers to foot the bil..." - Rover

Sorry to cut your quote short, but many companies have R&D built into their budgets. Like it or not the consumer pays for it without even realizing. The difference is, this industry is not building or designing anything. It's quite the opposite...they are destroying things...reefs.

 

[Anonymous]

Well it is happening, by the way. D-C, Ford and Honda are all investors in a company, Ballard Power Systems, that is currently developing fuel cell technology for zero emission vehicles.

The key word being "investor". ie I'm pretty sure they are all expecting a reasonable return, and not just a feel good one.

Sorry to cut your quote short, but many companies have R&D built into their budgets. Like it or not the consumer pays for it without even realizing. The difference is, this industry is not building or designing anything. It's quite the opposite...they are destroying things...reefs.

Of course the consumer will pay for it. See the first post in this topic. The point being, that until the various companies produce a product worth paying for, the consumers will sit on their money. No one asks the consumers for the money prior to the development of the product. That the whole gist behind investment. ie risk.

The Industry is also creating great awareness about life on the reef in general. It is providing an awful lot of jobs to an indiginous people who subsist off the reef, giving them ample reason to protect it. If we can't figure out a way to get Item A to Store B without damaging our sources we are doomed to fail. It's a simple matter of harvesting and transportation. If we can get fresh produce, and dead seafood delivered all over the country every day, surely we can figure this out.

 

[naesco]

Kylen you are right on the money.

Rover, like me you seem to have a business sense so please explain this to me.

It would cost a fraction of a cent more for each fish a reefer buys if industy invested in a cyanide free approach. They invest in training a CDT to keep them honest and pass on that investment to the end user reefer. It costs them nothing. It is common sense and they do not see it :?

Why? Is it because

1. They don't care how many fish die?
2. Their politics is right of Attila the Hun and they are not going to allow sum left wing pinko Canuck tell them what to do?
3. They don't know what to do?
4 They have no leadership?


Rover tell me what is their problem.
It is like a broken record but let me set out one more time
The continued use of cyanide by industry must stop. Unless that committment and timeline is made the Philippine and Indonesian industy is finished with the obvious consequences to their stateside supporters.

 

[kylen]

"The point being, that until the various companies produce a product worth paying for, the consumers will sit on their money." - Rover

Absolute nonsense. Why is the proliferation of online retailers so prevalent? PRICE! The average hobbyist doesn't care one iota about where the fish comes from or how it is caught. Gimme the cheapest possible fish. Why is Mary questioning her business plan? Because the average hobbyist doesn't care. Here's a quote from another bulletin board that sums up where the hobbyist mentality is.

It has been edited to remove the name of the LFS (live fish store).

"Just for the record I didn't mean to insinuate that **** did that on purpose, if it came across that way, I am sorry.

I am curious as to where they got them from though, we all know Blue Tangs are usually cyanide caught, having so many young ones not doing well, it seems that perhaps their supplier isn't telling them the whole truth.
That being said, I don't know much if anything about how the fish are brought in, NOR do I know for sure where those fish come from. I do know my LFS gets its shipments of fish the same days and about the same times as ****, and if ****'s stuff didn't come in neither did my LFS. My LFS however admits yes some of their fish are cyanide caught, they don't like it, but people want fish that they can afford. Lets face it, how many of us would pay $99 for a guaranteed NON cyanide caught fish when we can get the same fish with out knowing the real history for $49.... I don't know about you but, my pocket book would certainly over ride the moral dilema of purchasing fish that MAY have been cyanide caught.

I'd say, with out sticking my neck on the line that **** is a reputable dealer... I am willing to give them the bennefit of the doubt and hope those fish were a surprise and not ordered at that size. Although I have been in there and seen HUGE angels that just arrived the day or so before, again, lets hope they were brought in on a special order...
I like ****, I think they are above the board, I think though that they are trying to make a buck in a HIGHLY competitive market. We are lucky here from what I understand we pay about 1/4 to 1/2 what our neighbours to the south in Seattle pay for fish, so it is to our advantage to have the LFS trying to undercut each other for the time being. In a year, or more, lets hope that **** can still afford to stay in the market... although I wouldn't pay double the money for a fish from ****, I would pay a few bucks more for the peace of mind to know that they are a reputable, and environmentally aware company, that doesn't purposely bring in fish that are most likely destined to die slowly in some persons tank."

"The key word being "investor". ie I'm pretty sure they are all expecting a reasonable return, and not just a feel good one." - Rover

Aren't the gov'ts of the good 'ol USA and Canada legislating an increasing percentage of zero emission vehicles within a prescribed timeframe? This isn't a "feel good" exercise for the car makers. This is gov't intervention. Why would they spend al this money when the status quo is a much better option for them. Could this not happen with our industry? Don't underestimate Mr. Ryan. All it will take is one sympathetic ear.

 

[Anonymous]

Absolute nonsense. Why is the proliferation of online retailers so prevalent? PRICE! The average hobbyist doesn't care one iota about where the fish comes from or how it is caught.

As long as every one is selling the exact same product, the competition will be on price. When a new "product" comes along with a higher percieved value, the consumer will be able to differentiate between his options. This is why simple reform won't work. This is why a non-profit reform won't work. In order for reform to take hold, the consumer must realize that reform was necessary. And that takes money. Money put into marketing and advertisement. Net caught fish need to be marketed as a completely "new product" the same way a new sludge from Marc Weiss would be. A simple Net Caught label and an apology from the employee for the high price won't work. This is retail, sometimes it actually involves salesmanship.

Aren't the gov'ts of the good 'ol USA and Canada legislating an increasing percentage of zero emission vehicles within a prescribed timeframe? This isn't a "feel good" exercise for the car makers. This is gov't intervention. Why would they spend al this money when the status quo is a much better option for them. Could this not happen with our industry? Don't underestimate Mr. Ryan. All it will take is one sympathetic ear.

Sure they are. But at the demand of their constituents and because it is a hot topic for the voters. The Lacey Act could be considered in the same vein right? Just having a law on the books doesn't mean anything until it is enforced. For now it's just for the lawmakers to campaign on what they did, even though the problem is far from being solved. And no company is ever satisfied with the status quo.

 

[MaryHM]

One problem with trying to "mass market" a net caught label is that everyone says they have net caught. Call any wholesaler/retailer. Ask them if their fish are net caught. What do they say? They say "Of course! How many do you want?". This is why there is no higher value in true net caught fish. Why should someone pay 10-20% more when wholesaler/retailer xyz down the road says his fish are caught the same way, but they're cheaper?

 

[Nancy Swart]

One problem with trying to "mass market" a net caught label is that everyone says they have net caught. Call any wholesaler/retailer. Ask them if their fish are net caught. What do they say? They say "Of course! How many do you want?". This is why there is no higher value in true net caught fish. Why should someone pay 10-20% more when wholesaler/retailer xyz down the road says his fish are caught the same way, but they're cheaper?

Really, folks. Isn't false advertising and misrepresentation of a product illegal in the US? Why don't the same laws apply to the marine aquarium industry?

Maybe we, as hobbyists, need to find a way to develop a CDT that WE can perform at home just as we test for pH, etc., then start suing the pants off those suppliers who are not truthful.

Maybe it's time for us Hobbyists to form our own NGO to act as a governing/policing/whistleblowing body over industry.

Nancy

 

[MaryHM]

Really, folks. Isn't false advertising and misrepresentation of a product illegal in the US?

But when it's what everyone wants to hear, and no one can prove otherwise, then the misrepresentation is considered to be the truth.