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MaryHM

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(You have to read the Is MAC Fraudulent thread to understand the use of the word vanilla!! :) )

Gee whiz, I hate to be an I told you so (actually, I don't ;) ), but the confusion I predicted just a few short days ago has already begun. This was posted by a hobbyist over at Reef Central. He's in Flagstaff, AZ

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... ost1278263


I'm continuing to hone my psychic abilities and will be coming to an infomerical near you soon. ;)
 
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Anonymous

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FWIW I ordered some "MAC" certified Copperband's about a month ago as well, to see what it would be like. Didn't come in any fancy packaging or with any stickers. Just a note on the invoice that designated them as MAC certified, (along with an increase in price :wink: ). If I hadn't have noticed on the invoice I would have never known. Regardless, it was one of the three fish that we lost that month. Not saying that's indicative of anything, but I certainly didn't see anything different than the usual fare.
 

dizzy

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MaryHM":fgnn9s3t said:
(You have to read the Is MAC Fraudulent thread to understand the use of the word vanilla!! :)

Hey guys great news. I think I figured out the vanilla=fraud thing.
I think they are referring to Vanilla Ice the white rapper dude. Mike you are really in touch with the times. Could also be Milli Vanilli.
 

jorcutt

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So if MAC certified fish are being sent out without any type of labeling, then how do you know which is which? I'm sure the company you ordered from (does it start with a Q??? ;) ) has both certified and non-certified. Say you ordered 12 MAC Certified copperbands and they only had 5 left. You know they're going to sub you 7 uncertified ones. So your invoice says "5 MAC, 7 Non-MAC", but how do you tell which from which in the bags??? Just out of curiousity, how much more are you paying, percentage wise?
 

jorcutt

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oops- sorry. jorcutt is MaryHM in the above post. I'm on my employees computer because his connection is faster!
 

JennM

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Let me get this straight -- Glenn you should have ordered 2 certified, 2 non just to see if you could tell them apart...

Glenn, you're not a certified retailer, are you (didn't see you on the MAC website...)

So a NON-MAC retailer can buy MAC fish from a MAC certified wholesaler -- how does MAC know that the non-MAC retailer uses best practices?? (no offence Glenn - just hypothesizing...)

So does Glenn have to report the mortality to somebody? Or does the paper trail end at Q?

Inquring minds want to know...

Jenn
 

MaryHM

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Glenn can buy MAC certified fish all day long. He just can't advertise them as such if his facility isn't certified. The certification chain would end on that batch as soon as he bought them.
 
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Anonymous

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The week I ordered them they only had MAC certified for the species that I got. I ordered a few other MAC certified species but didn't recieve them. I also ordered a banded cat shark which I also recieved. (Not something I normally carry, but I wanted to see what kind of a difference the MAC label would mean. It died pretty quickly as well and never ate.) And we don't lose very many fish at all, at least not the slowly-wither type.

There wasn't any type of identifying paperwork that came with the bag, again the only designation was on the list and on the invoice. The price was only a few dollars higher, any more and I wouldn't have bothered.

But here's what gets me. I'm a full line store, with about 5 employees dedicated to the fish department. Which means that I don't always do everything that gets done around the place. Sometimes my fish manager or another employee is in charge of doing the pricing and signage on the tanks. Usually if something comes in with a special designation (ie location or tank raised. juv/adult etc.), especially if that designation warrants a price difference, it gets written on the tank as well. I happened to know what "MAC certified" meant and decided not to include it, but if I didn't hang out here so much, or if I had an employee do it, MAC certified would proabably ended up on the tank. And technically who could blame me? It did after all affect the price, and was part of the sales pitch to me by the wholesaler, why shouldn't I then include it in the sales pitch to my customer? (My own reservations about MAC aside of course :wink:)

And yes it was "Q". :D
 

MaryHM

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Hmmm- so an unnamed wholesaler is pushing fish on people as MAC certified when they know that if they're selling to an uncertified store that the certification ends as soon as they bag it up. Did they tell you that, Glenn? I'm guessing not, but will be happy to be wrong.

This does bring up a point. If your employees had written "MAC Certified" on the tank, who is policing that? I mean, any yahoo could write MAC certified on the tank I guess. Yeah, yeah- hobbyists are supposed to look for the official MAC label but c'mon, we all know that they aren't educated enough about MAC to know any better. Sounds like someone could easily write MAC certified on their tanks, charge several bucks more per fish, and no one would be the wiser. Any comment on this, John? How does MAC plan on dealing with this?
 
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Anonymous

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Did they tell you that, Glenn? I'm guessing not, but will be happy to be wrong.

No they didn't. I started to call and ask about it but got busy and ended up just faxing the order in.
 

naesco

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Why cant Mary for example buy MAC certified fish and sell them as such.
If someone buys from a MAC certified wholesaler like Quality Marine for example, why could they not sell the fish as MAC certified.
They just cannot hold themselves out as being a MAC certified store.
 

kylen

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A wholesaler or LFS has to be a MAC certified facility in order to sell fish as MAC certified. That confusion was evident on our local BB.
 

MaryHM

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I am buying MAC certified fish, as I buy from an exporter who buys some of her animals from MAC certified divers. However, since my facility is not certified (and since I prefer chocolate over vanilla I don't think that will be happening anytime soon), I can not run around touting that I have MAC certified fish. Note that I don't even tout that I buy from a MAC certified exporter. This program needs to be on the up and up if it's ever going to get any credibility. Companies pushing higher priced "certified" animals on retailers and not telling them that they can't advertise their fish as such is wrong. Aren't there any standards for MAC certified companies that dictate how they are to market these animals??? John, I'd really appreciate some input on this one.
 

naesco

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I take it that is a MAC rule.
But, they could sell it as `certified net caught` or certified cyanide free right?
 

John_Brandt

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MaryHM":296c882n said:
Hmmm- so an unnamed wholesaler is pushing fish on people as MAC certified when they know that if they're selling to an uncertified store that the certification ends as soon as they bag it up. Did they tell you that, Glenn? I'm guessing not, but will be happy to be wrong.

This does bring up a point. If your employees had written "MAC Certified" on the tank, who is policing that? I mean, any yahoo could write MAC certified on the tank I guess. Yeah, yeah- hobbyists are supposed to look for the official MAC label but c'mon, we all know that they aren't educated enough about MAC to know any better. Sounds like someone could easily write MAC certified on their tanks, charge several bucks more per fish, and no one would be the wiser. Any comment on this, John? How does MAC plan on dealing with this?

Mary and all,

It is true that only MAC Certified facilities can sell organisms as "MAC Certified", or even display references to "MAC Certification". It is wrong for anyone to misrepresent their certification status. I'm not surprised that such things have occurred. This is unfortunate, but it does attest to the perceived "value added" feature of MAC Certified animals.

This form of misrepresentation is the direct concern of MAC Certification Coordinator David Vosseler. I will bring the citations that have been presented here to his immediate attention. There is no way to police every single retailer, so MAC does look forward to the reporting of legitimate observations of misrepresentation. I will explore the ways that MAC intends to address this situation, but I can tell you that it has been anticipated.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago
 

John_Brandt

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naesco":3n9xc7ei said:
I take it that is a MAC rule.
But, they could sell it as `certified net caught` or certified cyanide free right?

Naesco,

The use of the term "certified" in a non-certified facility is a problem.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago
 
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Anonymous

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There is no way to police every single retailer, so MAC does look forward to the reporting of legitimate observations of misrepresentation.

Sounds like you are expecting the competition to snitch on each other.
 

JennM

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OK - follow me here (and I prefer Rocky Road to Vanilla *g* :D )

Let us suppose that retailer X is buying MAC certified fish from wholesaler Q. Retailer X is not MAC certified, but there is nothing PREVENTING him from buying MAC fish. For whatever reason I thought that Q could only sell MAC fish to certified MAC retailers, hence that motto "from Reef to Retail" (sm) Guess that ole chain of custody isn't perfect.... what's the point of certifiying them at the collector/exporter/importer-wholesaler level just to abandon the process between wholesaler and retailer, or better yet from exporter to importer? Does the paper trail on those specimens just go dead there? What about once they get to the hobbyist? How will they ever back up their fees with data if a good proportion of the fish leave the MAC chain of custody for the "standard" chain of custody when they leave the exporters' tanks?

I see two issues here... well more actually but two that jump out and bite me... let's hear from MAC on those, and then I'll dig a bit deeper.

1) If retailer V (for Vanilla :p ) IS MAC certified, and paid a good chunk of change for that certification, is there no preference or stipulation to that retailer to buy the MAC fish before X who is not certified? What if all the non-certified retailers snap up all the MAC fish before our buddy Vanilla places his order? Kinda sucks for him that he paid all that money for a certification but can't get the fish to show for it... also sucks that he's out all that dosh for a fancy sticker set and a pretty certificate but he's still buying all the same fish that X is, who saved his money and chooses his suppliers carefully, and IMO gets the same result (or dare I say...BETTER?) Vanilla should be peeved off. I would be, if I anted up for a certification - went through the toil and trouble of writing down every little detail about how I run my business, and jumped through all the administrative hoops, only to have the guy down the street bypass all that red tape, and still have the exact same product to offer. The other guy can afford to sell for less - because he didn't spend all that money on paperwork - but he's selling the same fish, from the same collectors/exporters.... I'd be crying foul in a heartbeat if I was a certified retailer - wait, I'm not certified (perhaps certifiable *g*) but I'm still crying foul.

2) Back to Retailer X - who is NOT certified - so he doesn't have a fancy certificate or sticker - but what is PREVENTING him from taking a good ole wax pencil and writing "MAC CERTIFIED" on the tank? If a customer asks, he can show the invoice (concealing the price, of course) but if the invoice notes MAC certified, from wholesaler Q - how is the hobbyist to know the difference? I submit that showing it on the invoice from Q would be enough for the average hobbyist to accept that this is a MAC certified fish (it was when it left Q, right?), and pay the premium if it is priced higher - even the "conscientious" hobbyist might not know all the "rules" where MAC is concerned.

And what about Retailer X - if he gets "caught" doing this,(and that would probably only be done by a pro-MAC "mole" customer...(are there any of those out there???) are the MAC police going to come and give him a ticket? Wait - MAC will sue him for misrepresentation -- how about that being the POT calling the KETTLE names..... wow what a legal can o'worms that might open...

Perhaps FARCE is a more appropriate word. (In French it means "stuffing").

Did anybody at the MAC actually think ALL the logistics through on this before they began? Methinks NOT.

At this point in time I can understand a MAC retailer or wholesaler being able to buy non-MAC fish and stay in good standing - because the number of species is apparently limited. However, it does not make sense that a non-MAC retailer can purchase MAC fish - renders the playing field very unfair to those who spent the time and money to earn the certification - as vanilla as that certification is, in my personal opinion, they at least deserve to get their money's worth.

I keep coming back to the feeling that all of these discussions should have transpired long before ANY certifications took place. Sure would have slowed the MAC agenda down, and perhaps slowed the gravy train for some, but it might have resulted in a certification that would have been respected across the industry.

Hey John -- do you still think I'm "shy"? :twisted:

Jenn
 

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