Let the vanilla certification begin!!

[Anonymous]

Rover,

No bypassing. Any retail store that wishes to be certified and can meet the standards, will be certified. Nobody is skipped over or bypassed.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought that MAC was going to exclude the independents. What I'm saying is that in the grand scheme of things all of our disagreements and skepticism about whether or not MAC will work the way it claims are moot if the big guys find it acceptable. If MAC has the approval of the chains, it doesn't need the little guy, therefore there is no incentive for MAC to change to meet the expectaions of the little guys. And if MAC goes ahead with its plans as is with the approval of the chains, it will have just made an enemy out of the very people who were calling for the reforms in the first place. The LFS will be forced to either give in to avoid being disparaged by the competition, regardless of their principles and concerns, or go on the offensive and aggressively expose the weaknesses of MAC in order to disparage the comeptition in return. "Certification" will be something built into the management plans of the big boxes, not something the little guys have to do from scratch. The cost of getting and remaining certified is something much more difficult for a single store to handle compared to a large chain. It just seems ironinc that something that has been called for by the people who truly care about the hobby, is going to end up adding to bottom line of the conglomerates and screwing them over in exchange.

It is just market forces at work after all. Just don't be surprised when those whose livelihood depend on the hobby see right through it.

 

[MaryHM]

They need to certify more areas, and quickly. This without good field staff and/or trainers...

Since Ferdie resigned, do they have any field staff and/or trainers??

I, for one, do not mind MAC certified fish going to uncertified facilities. But I do mind uncertified facilities touting their fish as MAC certified. And I really mind MAC certified wholesalers pushing MAC fish on uncertified retailers without explaining that the certification ends as soon as the fish is bagged and shipped. This is wrong, and I'm very curious to see if/how Paul addressed the issue.

 

[John_Brandt]

I, for one, do not mind MAC certified fish going to uncertified facilities. But I do mind uncertified facilities touting their fish as MAC certified. And I really mind MAC certified wholesalers pushing MAC fish on uncertified retailers without explaining that the certification ends as soon as the fish is bagged and shipped. This is wrong, and I'm very curious to see if/how Paul addressed the issue.

All,

As a director of MAC, I would like you to put your creative minds together to come up with ideas for addressing this issue. I would also encourage you to specifically point out non-certified facilities who are misrepresenting themselves as certified and/or their animals as certified.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[John_Brandt]

Rover,

No bypassing. Any retail store that wishes to be certified and can meet the standards, will be certified. Nobody is skipped over or bypassed.

John Brandt

John,

Here's a possible scenario though... If retailer's overtake supply, smaller retailers will not be able to get MAC fish...

MAC is in a weird position at the moment... They can supply the market with cleaner wrasses. They have more than the MAC certified stores could possibly take (from what I have heard). But they have a very limited number of species, and none of the real 'money' fish that the stores really want to supply. So, in some fish, supply outstrips demand, and in others, demand far exceeds supply.

They need to certify more areas, and quickly. This without good field staff and/or trainers...

Can they pull it off?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Yes Mike, it was I who pointed out that supply/demand issue to you. Others may have as well. MAC views it as temporary; and there is logic to the step-by-step one-thing-before-another progress that I have been expressing from the start.

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[Anonymous]

I would also encourage you to specifically point out non-certified facilities who are misrepresenting themselves as certified and/or their animals as certified.

But isn't it this type of "peer pressure" that will force everyone to be certified regardless of if it's a workable system? The only people doing the ratting out would be those retailers who are MAC certified already, the only solution for the offending party is to sell an inferior product or get certified as well.

 

[John_Brandt]

I would also encourage you to specifically point out non-certified facilities who are misrepresenting themselves as certified and/or their animals as certified.

But isn't it this type of "peer pressure" that will force everyone to be certified regardless of if it's a workable system? The only people doing the ratting out would be those retailers who are MAC certified already, the only solution for the offending party is to sell an inferior product or get certified as well.

Rover,

How ironic that this thread would have you calling non-certified animals "inferior". It is a very flattering comment for MAC.

I would expect non-certified retailers to "rat out" the offenders too. What do you think they are doing right here right now?

John Brandt

MASNA
MAC
CMAS-Chicago

 

[MaryHM]

As a director of MAC, I would like you to put your creative minds together to come up with ideas for addressing this issue.

As someone who has given hours of input to MAC without any results, I wouldn't bother wasting my time. Whatever they plan to do/not do they will/will not do- it really doesn't matter what anyone from the "outside" has to say about it. Unless of course the situation reaches a critical point where MAC starts to catch enough public backlash- then they'll put a priority sticker on it. Need I mention the cyanide testing issue??? Now that the situation has reached critical mass and people are publicly having a fit about it, it's finally a priority. No, I'll just wait until the problem becomes overwhelming, then I'll give my input. That seems to be the only time they bother to listen.

 

[Anonymous]

How ironic that this thread would have you calling non-certified animals "inferior". It is a very flattering comment for MAC.

I would expect non-certified retailers to "rat out" the offenders too. What do you think they are doing right here right now?

I have no problem believing that MAC certified animals could be higher quality, I haven't seen so yet, but I think it could work in theory. But it doesn't matter what I think, the perception of the customer is the key. By the time the MAC certified marketing campaign is under way, it will be the customer's perception that anything not MAC certified will be inferior. Regardless of the truth. If MAC is carried forth by the chains into the mass media, the little guys will have no choice but to fall in or be viewed as inferior. Science Diet is a pretty crappy dog food compared to some but thanks to marketing and Vet support, most customers percieve it as being the end all be all of food, even though they come in complaining about the very problems caused by the food, but refuse to change, because of the marketing. Most smaller retailers are looking for true quality and not a marketing campaign. But in this case it's not simply a decision to carry an over hyped product, it's a decision to pay money and jump through hoops for the privelege of being allowed to carry what seems to be an overhyped product.

And as I recall no one ratted any one out. I didn't sell the fish as MAC certified (they died before I could anyway), but I brought to light the fact that I could have if I had wanted to. Not that it would have made any difference because very few customers would have known what it meant. For now.

 

[dizzy]

If MAC is carried forth by the chains into the mass media, the little guys will have no choice but to fall in or be viewed as inferior.

Rover your reasoning has some serious flaws. Independent stores try to avoid carrying things that go head to head with the discounters. The manufacturers recognize this and often do different packaging and different names on the same product. Marineland is good at this game. I think the MAC realizes that if they go ahead and certifiy the big boxes and good doctor types, they will never get the support of the independent retailers.

Look at it this way: You and Petco both have certified blue tangs. Petco's price is $20.00 and yours are $30.00 because you don't have the purchasing power. Both have the exact same nice sticker on the tank. Where does the hobbyists spend his hard earned money? If you people don't realize the chains will use this certification thing to the detriment of the independents then you deserve the fate that awaits you.

 

[Anonymous]

Dizzy-
I think we are saying the same thing.

I think the MAC realizes that if they go ahead and certifiy the big boxes and good doctor types, they will never get the support of the independent retailers.

My point is that it is evident to me that MAC doesn't care about what the independents want. If we were important to them our input and concerns would hae been addressed in the beginning. They don't care because we aren't necessary to them.

Where does the hobbyists spend his hard earned money? If you people don't realize the chains will use this certification thing to the detriment of the independents then you deserve the fate that awaits you.

Exactly. Now imagine if an indepenent chooses to not be certified just by principle and is trying to sell a $30.00 un-certified tang. Anything anti-MAC just looks like whining to the customers.

 

[JennM]

Well now doesn't THAT put a whole new spin on things?

Just what we independents need - NOT.

How will they address the issue of "qualified" staff? Ever been to one of those places and asked a QUESTION? Ever write a letter of complaint to the head office of that type of place? I did.

This is the same sort of place where one of my maintenance customers (he's a "tank owner" not a "hobbyist") bought 8 tiny little ORA percs because they were on sale, put them in his 225 gallon tank, where his Paddlefin Wrasse and Creole Anthias, or perhaps the pair of Tomato Clowns, proceeded to pick them off, one by one.... :roll: If certification could help prevent occurrances like this, then that's a good thing, but I'm still very dubious. In general (not always, there are some conscientious workers out there), those places don't care, and the aquatics departments are only required to "break even" because the money is made on warm-blooded animals' supplies. Bag 'em up - no questions asked. This type of thing is what drives many OUT of the hobby - sheer frustration at poor or no advice or guidance. The independents (the good ones) take the time to know customers' names, what their tanks are like, their likes and dislikes.... even now we generally can't beat those other places on price, but we run circles around them on service. I doubt those places will offer house calls or maintenance either, so IMO there will still be a place for the independent, we just might have to change a bit to keep going.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

IMO there will still be a place for the independent, we just might have to change a bit to keep going.

I agree. But it will be to the detriment of MAC. Because in order for the independent to truly compete, it requires knowledge. And no one will be able to pick them apart better than us. Just like we do with anything with - Clone in the title or a cute cartoon fish on the label.

In MAC's current state it simply cannot rely only on the independent, (they are simply too far spread and diverse to control to any degree) and if it certifies the chains, it will lose many of the independents all together, (as well as it's relevancy and integrity). Best case scenario then is for them to rely soley on the chains, with the independents as "icing". Which creates enemies out of the more vocal and pricipled of the independents. Sorry to bring dog food back into it, but a good illustration is when Iams decided to go into the grocery stores. Most of the independents immidiately stopped carrying it, and they are still suffering for it, both finacially and in their image as a "premium" brand.

This is also evident in the chain of custody as it's really set up to reduce mortality and the bottom line, not necessarily to protect the reefs. Which is why the added cost is compensated for by less mortality mantra is preached so often. It's all about moving boxes as efficiently as possible. The qualified staff and in store mortality will be taken care of simply by the sheer numbers of fish being moved. The fish won't be in the store any more than a few days, and not long enough to affect any mortality reports. And fish mortalities after purchase will simply be replaced no questions asked.

Or maybe I just had too big a dose of cynicism today. :wink:

 

[JennM]

The dog food analogy is a good one - many of us have stopped using wholesalers who sell to the public under other names - there is one we all know and love who has a stipulation that if hobbyist customer lives close to a store that they sell to, the customer must pick up at that store - that's win/win, IMO because the customer might also spend on dry goods or something else in the shop.

I know that dry goods or equipment sellers who sell to hobbyists for the same price as to retailers don't get much respect - however some of the hardware places have their online hobbyist pricing, and "dealer" pricing, which lets the retailer compete. I sell stuff from one in particular, for the same price as their website, because the dealer price makes it practical.

Back to MAC - when it comes to some of those nameless establishments, many hobbyists already have an opinion about them, it will take more than a sticker to change their minds, in fact, I'd even venture to bet that MAC's image might further be tarnished with such an association - but if said places are forking out beaucoup dollars for certifications, that will keep the MAC wheels turning, so who cares, right?

All the more reason for us mom and pops to use our dollars carefully and move the market on our own. I'm a little fish in a big sea - so are many others - if we all school together, suddenly we look like a much larger creature, don't we? We should apply the same laws of survival that occur in the oceans, to ourselves.

Strength in numbers....

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

when it comes to some of those nameless establishments, many hobbyists already have an opinion about them, it will take more than a sticker to change their minds, in fact, I'd even venture to bet that MAC's image might further be tarnished with such an association - but if said places are forking out beaucoup dollars for certifications, that will keep the MAC wheels turning, so who cares, right?

But we all know that there aren't enough "hobbyist" to run a business, and I really don't think MAC is relying on them either. But at the same time it would be a good way for those places to improve their already tarnished image to the hobbyist, while continuing to sell to the tank owner/living picture people.

"MAC Certified" will do to saltwater what "Florida Aquacultured" did to freshwater.

 

[JennM]

[
But we all know that there aren't enough "hobbyist" to run a business, and I really don't think MAC is relying on them either.

I guess it depends on how much effort we put into the customer. Yes, there are some who won't listen no matter how much we preach, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying.

Most of my customers are serious hobbyists, I'm a specialty store. I don't get "impulse shoppers", except the occasional person who goes home with a Betta and accessories, but those are very few and far between. They are serious insofar as they seek out a specialty store for their needs - but not necessarily go the extra step to go online to a forum like this, or to a reef club... so the extent of their enlightenment is what they choose to take from me.

Jenn

 

[mkirda]

Yes Mike, it was I who pointed out that supply/demand issue to you. Others may have as well.

Yep! I have a number of sources, John.

MAC views it as temporary; and there is logic to the step-by-step one-thing-before-another progress that I have been expressing from the start.

John Brandt

Well, over time, we shall see if the assumptions that the logic was based on were correct or not... The idea MAC pushes so often, that MAC certified fish will suffer less loss (due to not being caught with cyanide) hasn't really panned out yet... Seems that many of the current MAC certified fish are not typically caught with cyanide to begin with... So all the MAC certification means is that there is a paper trail, and that the animals were supposed to be held in better conditions. Than what, we do not know.

Now suppose some other group of collectors collects with nets and has just as good or better handling standards... After seeing Palauig, I don't think this is a stretch. You get all the same benefits, but without the extra costs involved. (I.E. No 'per box' fee paid to the MAC.)

In all of this, I kept hearing how MAC certification was not going to mean an increase in price. Yet the collectors need to fill out massive amounts of paperwork, or pay someone to do it for them. Collectors were going to be paid more, the exporters could hold the line on pricing. So who is paying for the certification of the collection area? Who is paying for certification of the exporter? Who is paying for the CDT? MAC surely cannot- I've heard it has burned through a lot of its money already anyway. If the collectors have to pay the airfare of Graham O'Geran, then his 'fee' for looking over their paperwork, surely they must expect a return on their investment? For them, the amount is staggeringly expensive- on the order of $25-50,000 if you compared it to the US equivalent in average yearly salary...
But then why is there a per box charge?

Yes, I know, I'm stuck on the collector's side...

The unfortunate truth is that some are going to break out the wine over the CDT brief. Yet, you and I both know that the devil is in the details, and if the testing is not handled properly, it will become yet another joke. It was pretty well known in the Philippines that if you had to come up with fish for testing, you gave the official damselfish as they were not caught with cyanide to begin with. Or if you needed a fish normally caught with cyanide to test as cyanide-free, you just ordered a few from those net-caught guys and sent those in instead of your normal stock... They knew ways to circumvent the system.

If the MAC implements the CDT in such a way that it is so easily circumventable, then having a CDT is useless anyway.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

[/quote]

The unfortunate truth is that some are going to break out the wine over the CDT brief. Yet, you and I both know that the devil is in the details, and if the testing is not handled properly, it will become yet another joke. It was pretty well known in the Philippines that if you had to come up with fish for testing, you gave the official damselfish as they were not caught with cyanide to begin with. Or if you needed a fish normally caught with cyanide to test as cyanide-free, you just ordered a few from those net-caught guys and sent those in instead of your normal stock... They knew ways to circumvent the system.

If the MAC implements the CDT in such a way that it is so easily circumventable, then having a CDT is useless anyway.

Regards.
Mike Kirda[/quote]

Hi Mike and that would be me and it is cognac not wine.

There is an opportunity for all of us to put forward suggestions to MAC to avoid any problems that ocurred in the past.

We all want to see a verifyable random CDT.
Mike can you list the problems as you see and the suggestions to avoid them in the MAC announcement thread.
I am sure John will pass them on
Thanks
Wayne

 

[clarionreef]

Alright!
Since the certification mill is gearing up and the CDT is going to be revived and "improved", whats next on the calendar of good news?
Did we forget anything?? Oh yes...the fish! Problem is there aren't any. Unless you consider the 1% of the total certified supply a quantity. One percent is just 1% away from zero.
Now that the easy part is to be done...ie. paperwork on both ends, the training of a few thousand divers is a simple matter? When did this ever happen?
Are we not counting chickens before they're laid?
I'm here at IMAC on AMDAs dime and we need netcaught fish in quantity and variety to sell. We can't sell the paperwork. Thats what others do. Marinelife dealers can only sell fish supply. The consideration of that as a temporary issue easily and soon to be solved is a ridiculous thing to claim. The deal is not yet even hammered out with any field trainers and any funding agency. Jumping the gun on this and considering it a small matter belies an incredible ignorance or arrogance. Perhaps both.
Things are heating up in the Philippines where all the good fish are and combat pay may be needed to coax anyone to train there.
I have a training team and so does Ferdie Cruz. Linked up under the banner of CORL offers much promise... but nothing has happened yet.
It minimizes what we do professionally to see it considered something to just tidy up so the "important" stuff can then go forth. This is the important stuff! It is the only thing that converts divers, provides livlihood, saves coral and actually solves the problem. Please don't confuse solving the problem with "observing it" being solved. CDT and Certifier folks detect, data input, type, log, collate, staple, copy and hover around people who actually solve the problem. People who actually solve the problem, aside from the "mandarin squad" have not been employed yet!
Anyway...thats what this conference means to me.Trying to get us on the same definition of priorities. Tough to do with non aquarium people, but I'll try! Steve Robinson
AMDA pres @ IMAC,Chicago

 

[naesco]

Yup, if I were you Steve I would pack my bags. You are going to be a very busy very much in demand guy.
If I were the Phillippine exporters, MAC (Phillippines), the village leaders, Phillippine government and agencies, I would be burning the midnight oil putting the final touches on their training planning.

Obviously time is of the essence because not only will their be a treamendous demand for cyanide free fish but there will be a backlash against those who continue the cyanide game.
Why? Because it is over.

So, Steve the word needs to get out to all those who can make it happen because this time it is happening NOW.

Lots of luck, eh!

 

[mkirda]

Why? Because it is over.

What did Alan Greenspan call it???

'Irrational exhuberance', I believe?

I think you are suffering from some post-Internet stock bubble type of enthusiasm here.

Regards.
Mike Kirda