USA Cyanide Testing and the Lacey Act

[naesco]

I see one consequence of this:

If prosecutions under this act were started, ALL AIR CARGO companies would stop accepting fish shipments, period. If the government can seize their planes, it just makes no business sense to continue to accept fish shipments and expose your firm to such risks.

Be careful what you wish for, people...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

I wish for the end of the use of cyanide which destroys the reefs and the critters they protect.
If a couple of industry executives go to the 'big house' having been convicted of felony charges under the Act that is absolutely fine with me.

My friend, when it come to cyanide use, there can be no compromise.

 

[mkirda]

My friend, when it come to cyanide use, there can be no compromise.

Even if it means going to jail yourself, Naesco?
And having your car confiscated?
All 'cause you bought a fish at the local fish shop that was actually a cyanide fish, and you didn't know it? Oh, but that isn't an excuse now, is it? Ignorance of the law... Say hello to your new cell mate.

Jeez, did anyone even read this Lacey Act, and do they understand the ramifications of it???

First of all, it would shut down the industry completely and totally.
Not a single airline company would allow another fish shipment because of the risk it entails, Naesco. Read the act. If a fish is found to have cyanide traces in an importer, the government fines every single organization in the line of custody. That includes the airlines. The Lacey Act give the government the right to impound the vehicles used to transport the fish, Naesco. That includes the airplane. Written into the law. There is only one rational response to that sort of threat: Stop shipping fish.

Stop shipping fish = death of aquarium industry.
Death of aquarium industry = death of reform efforts.

Did I connect all the dots this time?
Do I win a prize?

Prosecuting the importers under the Lacey Act is not something to ask for lightly. This is a nuclear weapon when a hand grenade would do...

Be careful of what you wish for, Naesco.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

My friend, when it come to cyanide use, there can be no compromise.

Even if it means going to jail yourself, Naesco?
And having your car confiscated?
All 'cause you bought a fish at the local fish shop that was actually a cyanide fish, and you didn't know it? Oh, but that isn't an excuse now, is it? Ignorance of the law... Say hello to your new cell mate.

Jeez, did anyone even read this Lacey Act, and do they understand the ramifications of it???

First of all, it would shut down the industry completely and totally.
Not a single airline company would allow another fish shipment because of the risk it entails, Naesco. Read the act. If a fish is found to have cyanide traces in an importer, the government fines every single organization in the line of custody. That includes the airlines. The Lacey Act give the government the right to impound the vehicles used to transport the fish, Naesco. That includes the airplane. Written into the law. There is only one rational response to that sort of threat: Stop shipping fish.

Stop shipping fish = death of aquarium industry.
Death of aquarium industry = death of reform efforts.

Did I connect all the dots this time?
Do I win a prize?

Prosecuting the importers under the Lacey Act is not something to ask for lightly. This is a nuclear weapon when a hand grenade would do...

Be careful of what you wish for, Naesco.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

IMO when the first US CEO/owner felon is charged, convicted and sentenced, there will no longer be a cyanide problem stateside.
Than, and only than will industry do any due dilegence on the source of their fish.
Indonesia and the Philippies are the major source of cheap fish for the industry but they are not the only source of fish for the hobby.
Clean fish can be purchased from other countries.

 

[MaryHM]

I just want to thank everyone here for their opinions on the Lacey Act and how it could be applied to the industry. Many points were brought up that had never occurred to me, and I appreciate that. It's good to learn here and not just try to teach/preach. It's definitely helped me to start solidifying my views on the subject. Thanks again!

 

[mkirda]

IMO when the first US CEO/owner felon is charged, convicted and sentenced, there will no longer be a cyanide problem stateside.
Than, and only than will industry do any due dilegence on the source of their fish.
Indonesia and the Philippies are the major source of cheap fish for the industry but they are not the only source of fish for the hobby.
Clean fish can be purchased from other countries.

Naesco,

You still do not get it...

The first conviction would equal the death of the industry, period.
You can personally guarantee every single airline that outside of PI and Indo, there is not a single, solitary fish that was not taken with cyanide? You are going to put up a bond covering the cost of the airplane and the fines? You got that kind of cash? If so, I want to talk to you about funding a net training program... If not, then again the only rational business decision by any air carrier is to stop carrying fish altogether. They will not care where the fish are from...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Couple things:

Is Sodium cyanide even detectable in the animal by the time it reaches a US port of entry? i.e. LAX?

Enforcement means $$$. It costs manhours to enforce code, manhours are in short supply in law enforcement especially at the US Customs/USDA level where the current focus is preventing international terrorism.

For this to be enforced someone with appropriate power will have to get a wild hair up their orofice about sodium cyanide and specifically devote manhours that are likely currently involved in much more serious issues thus opening the official to potential political pressure.

In the big picture I don't think it's worth worrying about other than the incredible power the Lacey Act gives the Feds, it's about as abhorrent as the rules for Drug Seizures.

 

[naesco]

IMO when the first US CEO/owner felon is charged, convicted and sentenced, there will no longer be a cyanide problem stateside.
Than, and only than will industry do any due dilegence on the source of their fish.
Indonesia and the Philippies are the major source of cheap fish for the industry but they are not the only source of fish for the hobby.
Clean fish can be purchased from other countries.

Naesco,

You still do not get it...

The first conviction would equal the death of the industry, period.
You can personally guarantee every single airline that outside of PI and Indo, there is not a single, solitary fish that was not taken with cyanide? You are going to put up a bond covering the cost of the airplane and the fines? You got that kind of cash? If so, I want to talk to you about funding a net training program... If not, then again the only rational business decision by any air carrier is to stop carrying fish altogether. They will not care where the fish are from...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Sorry Mike but I am afraid that it is you who does not get it.
May I repeat myself

The use of cyanide kills the reef head, the rock, the sand, the critters, the coral and most of the fish. Those fish that survive are sold to Philippine felons who in turn sell them to American felons who sell them to unsuspecting reefers who watch them die in their tanks.
When it comes to cyanide, there can be no compromise

If you are an importer or wholesaler and presently buy fish from the Philippines or Indonesia and you value your net worth and possibly your liberty, my advice would be to find another source for your fish.

If you agree with Mike that the airlines will embargo fish shipments from Indonesia or the Philippines, my advice would be to find another source for your fish.
Establish a source, build a working relationship with suppliers in cyanide free countries before your competition does. Than they will be the ones who will be tested, not you. :twisted:

 

[mkirda]

Sorry Mike but I am afraid that it is you who does not get it.

Nevermind. I've made my point, Naesco.

Whoever thinks that the Lacey Act will EVER be applied in this manner has been smoking a bit too much of the wacky weed anyway.

In the words of the poet/philosopher Jim Morrison:

WAKE UP!!!!!

You are living outside of this thing we call reality.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

So bottom line...do you guys think a stateside test is a dumb idea because of the implications for the trade?

 

[mkirda]

So bottom line...do you guys think a stateside test is a dumb idea because of the implications for the trade?

Do I think it is dumb? Heck, no.

You can think of this as similar to the 'drug war'.
You can fight it on a lot of different fronts.

However, I do think that there are possibly better options to start with first rather than others. Enforcement here when you have absolutely zero control over how the fish are caught strikes me as bass-ackwards... Go to the source, convince the fishermen that they are wrong, that they can use nets and make more money. Work with them doing experiments in different handling techniques, and see what works best with lowest mortality. If you clean up the supply end, the cyanide issue mostly goes away, at least as far as the Marine Ornamental industry goes...

This approach makes far more sense to me, and possibly more importantly, it doesn't upset the business folks here, making it far more likely it will be tolerated. And possibly accepted. And possible embraced.

What is crazy when you think about it is the fact that of the entire cyanide use problem, the MO industry is only a small slice of it. This is the easy part, really... The far harder time will come from trying to reform the Live Reef Food Fish trade... Again, subject for another thread.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

Sorry Mike but I am afraid that it is you who does not get it.

Nevermind. I've made my point, Naesco.

Whoever thinks that the Lacey Act will EVER be applied in this manner has been smoking a bit too much of the wacky weed anyway.

In the words of the poet/philosopher Jim Morrison:

WAKE UP!!!!!

You are living outside of this thing we call realit

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Jim Morrison is correct WAKE UP

We have the laws, we have the CDT and many many witnesses.
We will soon have a complainant and a prosecutor.
All we need is the evidence which will be available once random testing is done stateside.

Think about what you should be doing! I have some positive things that industry should consider which I will post here soon.

 

[mkirda]

We will soon have a complainant and a prosecutor.

Right... :roll:

Now all you need is funding to complete work on a cyanide test that will work stateside. Or Canadian-side, for you. Then you need to standardize the test. Then you need to set up a lab to do the testing. Then you have to train the techs to run it. Then you have to pay them. Then you have to get fish samples in and run them. Then you have to get a prosecutor interested in the results enough to file charges.

I figure you got two years of full time work ahead of you, and you need a budget of $250,000 minimum just to get to the point where you have a lab set up, not including salaries...

Good luck, Naesco.
Keep us posted on how it is going. And stay focused.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Think about what you should be doing!

LOL. You are telling me!?!?!

Gee, and I thought that was what I was telling you!

Thanks for clearing that up. I'll stick to what makes the most sense:
Converting the fishermen from cyanide to nets, rather than taking your car and imprisoning you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

This approach makes far more sense to me, and possibly more importantly, it doesn't upset the business folks here, making it far more likely it will be tolerated. And possibly accepted. And possible embraced.

Upsetting the business folk is an important consideration as to why the Lacey Act would never be enforced in this manner. When one person loses their home, cars, bank accounts to the Feds for a drug offense (even when it's Grandma cuz grandson was selling crack outa his bedroom window) people don't care. Enforce a policy that may put 10's of thousands out of jobs and close businesses nationwide - thats political suicide - Federal Prosecutors are Presidential Appointments, even if Hillary gets back to the Oval office it aint gonna happen.

There are many "Lacey Acts" on the books. There sole existance is for politicians to point at and say "See WE did something!" They usually aren't intended to actually be enforced. Feel Good Legislature.

 

[naesco]

Think about what you should be doing!

LOL. You are telling me!?!?!

Gee, and I thought that was what I was telling you!

Thanks for clearing that up. I'll stick to what makes the most sense:
Converting the fishermen from cyanide to nets, rather than taking your car and imprisoning you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Ok Mike you work diligently on the Philippine side converting fisherman from cyanide to nets which efforts I support 100%.

In turn I will continue our efforts to get a CDT in place and convince both the Philippine exporters and the American importers that that the impact of prosecutions of felons under the Lacey Act and amendments thereto, is not in the best interest of the industry.

 

[Anonymous]

So bottom line...do you guys think a stateside test is a dumb idea because of the implications for the trade?

I think it's a good idea on paper. But it needs to be streamlined and toned down a bit on the penalties for it to ever be useful. A three strikes your out (or on probabation) system would be sufficient. The only way real CDT testing will ever take place is if it can be used as a marketing tool to "one up the other guy". By saying our fish are cyanide FREE and we can prove it. Similar to the way many of the new holistic dog food comanies are striving to the first with the "organic" certification. Green products are the next big thing in the dog and cat sectors, and more new products are coming evry day (all natural dog and cat foods, chemical free flea products, all natural herbal remdies for vitamins, joints, and skin, etc.) And these people are working hard to make their products legit, mostly based on competition and staying ahead of the other guy. With the emphasis on quality and being able to back it up better than the competition. (Have I used the word comepetition enough yet? ) This mantra or approach could be easily taken by one of the larger wholesalers (voluntarily, as a means to exploit an emerging market) and through competition a CDT would be implemented and kept legit. I get FDA reports and investigations all the time that are results of the various companies trying to find holes to exploit in the other guys food.

 

[Anonymous]

By saying our fish are cyanide and we can prove it

Now admitting it in press, for advertising would definitly kick start a court case.

 

[Anonymous]

I fixed it. Darn keyboard.