Ethical collection, sustainability and MPAs

[clarionreef]

Lee,
Save your gas.
The certified stores are loaded with "the other kind of fish" and as I explained to you there are very few species and numbers of the so called certified fish around.
Since the species are all knowable, and the zoogeography of the mix is also known. I can tell you how long you'll have to hold your breath for a certified one if you tell me what you're looking for.
However, if you want a bonafide, net caught one, you can have it pretty quick..
The netcaught people in Bali and the Philippines ship here and no others are mixed in to confuse you futher. If you really wanted netcaught fish you could get em.
Hours 8:00am -6:00pm Mon-Fri...closed to the public.
Sincerely, Steve @ Cortez
PS. The other option is Sea Crop, Mary Middlebrooks direct express company. She doesn't mix the fish to get the convention cyanide fish variety either. But the integrity is there and the effort to stay clean.
Sorry...but its a short list. If you are a purist, however and don't want to support the poisoning of corals to get fish... this is your crowd then.

 

[clarionreef]

No...we have no customers in Oaklahoma or in many other places as this kind of message doesn't fly very well. Cheap fish processed in industrial fashion to achieve an economy of scale enable the
a] lowering of prices and
b] super duper sales and specials.
There is where 95% of the hobbyists and dealers play. You represent so few that there are not many dealers who are into this netcaught stuff at all. Certainly not completely and without mixing in cyanide fish.
Alas...it is our niche and cross to bear. Welcome to the club..
Steev

 

[blue hula3]

My quandary continues to be, “what are the ethical obligations of a contientious reef hobbyist?” I’d say there certainly is an obligation to support netcaught grassroots efforts, also to support well implemented certification programs. However, it seems to me that if a hobbyist cannot obtain data on where animals are specifically being imported from; the capture technique; and information regarding the sustainability of collection that it might be best to avoid wild caught fish altogether. I guess what I’m saying is that even knowing a bit more than some hobbyists I cannot go into any local stores and make a truly informed purchase. There is no data. Perhaps if I had a MAC certified LFS I could get a bit closer to that goal?

Lee - I think it is great that you want to get clean and green (blue?) fish. Is there a local marine aquarium society ? Maybe you can get a group of like minded individuals together (or convince some others) and share a shipment from a netcaught supplier? Or go the tank-bred route.

However, your comment about getting "closer" to the goal via a MAC certified shop shows just how dangerous paper certification is. Without demonstrable proof that the fish were caught without cyanide and from areas with a sufficient resource base to support collection ... in my book, you are sadly no closer to your goal. Certification only makes it seem that way.

Cheers, Jessica

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe you can get a group of like minded individuals together (or convince some others) and share a shipment from a netcaught supplier?

Of course this group would have to form a business and get all the required docs in order to purchase from a US wholesaler. You could go the transhipping route, but good luck finding a (bonafide) net caught supplier that'll do that.

However, your comment about getting "closer" to the goal via a MAC certified shop shows just how dangerous paper certification is. Without demonstrable proof that the fish were caught without cyanide and from areas with a sufficient resource base to support collection ... in my book, you are sadly no closer to your goal. Certification only makes it seem that way.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[blue hula3]

Doesn't Seacrop supply net caught fish direct to hobbyists?

 

[mkirda]

Doesn't Seacrop supply net caught fish direct to hobbyists?

Yes, I believe she does.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[devils advocate]

But how do we know that these "net caught" fish from Seacrop were taken from an area that will sustain the collection? Have CAMPs been done on these sites? Food for thought (not to slight you at all Mary).

 

[mkirda]

But how do we know that these "net caught" fish from Seacrop were taken from an area that will sustain the collection? Have CAMPs been done on these sites? Food for thought (not to slight you at all Mary).

Mr. Devil,

Well, for one, you don't.
At least not at the current moment.

However, if Mary is importing from whom I think she is, then she is getting fish directly from sites that are in the middle of the "CAMP" process with EASI. They actually use a different acronym than CAMP, but the idea is basically the same. I expect that these will also be made publicly available.
Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

However, if Mary is importing from whom I think she is, then she is getting fish directly from sites that are in the middle of the "CAMP" process with EASI. They actually use a different acronym than CAMP, but the idea is basically the same. I expect that these will also be made publicly available.

Mike,

You seem to be an apologist for everyone, except MAC. Mary is fully capible of blowing the "P.R. trumpet" on her own behalf, but hasn't chosen to do so, so I suspect she has little to say regarding the Devil's comments. I'm not saying that the MSI product isn't most likely superiour or more ethical than most out there.

The innuendo in your post is so cryptic as to lack any substance. So what you are essentially saying is "Mary might be importing from somone that might be collecting in an area that could be working on a CAMP-type thing that might show that collecting is sustainable"? Lovely, I feel all better about it now.

-Lee

 

[mkirda]

Mike,

The innuendo in your post is so cryptic as to lack any substance. So what you are essentially saying is "Mary might be importing from somone that might be collecting in an area that could be working on a CAMP-type thing that might show that collecting is sustainable"? Lovely, I feel all better about it now.

-Lee

No, Lee, that is not what I said or am saying at all.

The point being, at this time, there is *no area* that can be shown to be fished sustainably.

There are areas where EASI is currently involved. They are still "works in progress", but I believe that the CAMP-like documents from these areas will be publicly available.

Someone mentioned Seacrop as a source for net-caught fish. I am under the impression that Mary is importing from an exporter that is heavily supporting the areas EASI is involved in, i.e. buying all or most of their fish. If all pans out, these fish will be shown to be sustainably fished. I mention Seacrop only because it is the only place where a hobbyist can order net-caught fish directly unless you happen to be nearby a MAC-certified store.

From all of the talks I have had with MAC, it has been made pretty clear to me that CAMP documents will NEVER be released publicly. Without releasing the results of the resource assessments, MAC-certified fish can never be shown to be harvested in a sustainable manner.

And, Lee, lest you point out that this seems a contradiction, let me restate something here:
I am not anti-MAC. I think the hobbyists can and should support their efforts, but they should also make themselves aware of the problems inherent in MAC's implementation of their standards. Despite the problems, I would urge those who have the ability and who care to go ahead and buy MAC fish.

Anyway, an apologist would not have been so blunt about the fact that no fish can be shown to be sustainably fished at this time. An apologist would have avoided the topic altogether, Lee.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Anyway, an apologist would not have been so blunt about the fact that no fish can be shown to be sustainably fished at this time.

Therein lies the rub regarding the ethics of purchasing wild collected fish, IMO.

An apologist would have avoided the topic altogether, Lee.

LOL, can't argue with you on that one, Mike.

Happy Halloween,
Lee

 

[Anonymous]

I guess we had to give the "devils advocate" his/her due on Halloween. 8O :twisted: 8O

 

[mkirda]

Therein lies the rub regarding the ethics of purchasing wild collected fish, IMO.

Well, personally, I feel like there is hope that a source of ethically and sustainably harvested net-caught fish will become available within the next year.

Let me ask you this, Lee...
If an area is heading towards certification, is collecting via nets, but is not yet certified, how would you view their fish? You know that the catch data required to really ascertain sustainability takes years to gather. You have to catch fish to gather the data too. Someone previously suggested that MAC call these something along the lines of 'provisionally certified'. How do you view them? How should an NGO (i.e. like MAC) view them?

I'm not saying that there are right and wrong answers, just different ways of addressing the issue.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Let me ask you this, Lee...
If an area is heading towards certification, is collecting via nets, but is not yet certified, how would you view their fish? You know that the catch data required to really ascertain sustainability takes years to gather. You have to catch fish to gather the data too. Someone previously suggested that MAC call these something along the lines of 'provisionally certified'. How do you view them? How should an NGO (i.e. like MAC) view them?

Well, until hard statistical data is available, it seems reasonable to have a panel of well experienced and qualified experts in fisheries biology determine catch quotas that they believe would be sustainable in their learned experience. If collection does not exceed that quota then it seems fair for an NGO to certify the livestock as sustainable. During that probationary period (until hard data is available) the fishery should have periodic qualitative assement and possible revision of catch quotas.

Hypothetically speaking,
Lee

 

[Anonymous]

Mike,

The innuendo in your post is so cryptic as to lack any substance. So what you are essentially saying is "Mary might be importing from somone that might be collecting in an area that could be working on a CAMP-type thing that might show that collecting is sustainable"? Lovely, I feel all better about it now.

-Lee

No, Lee, that is not what I said or am saying at all.

The point being, at this time, there is *no area* that can be shown to be fished sustainably.

There are areas where EASI is currently involved. They are still "works in progress", but I believe that the CAMP-like documents from these areas will be publicly available.

Someone mentioned Seacrop as a source for net-caught fish. I am under the impression that Mary is importing from an exporter that is heavily supporting the areas EASI is involved in, i.e. buying all or most of their fish. If all pans out, these fish will be shown to be sustainably fished. I mention Seacrop only because it is the only place where a hobbyist can order net-caught fish directly unless you happen to be nearby a MAC-certified store.

From all of the talks I have had with MAC, it has been made pretty clear to me that CAMP documents will NEVER be released publicly. Without releasing the results of the resource assessments, MAC-certified fish can never be shown to be harvested in a sustainable manner.

And, Lee, lest you point out that this seems a contradiction, let me restate something here:
I am not anti-MAC. I think the hobbyists can and should support their efforts, but they should also make themselves aware of the problems inherent in MAC's implementation of their standards. Despite the problems, I would urge those who have the ability and who care to go ahead and buy MAC fish.
Anyway, an apologist would not have been so blunt about the fact that no fish can be shown to be sustainably fished at this time. An apologist would have avoided the topic altogether, Lee.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

then what, exactly, would my purchasing of mac certified fish, in your opinion, mike, be supporting?

 

[mkirda]

then what, exactly, would my purchasing of mac certified fish, in your opinion, mike, be supporting?

It supports the net-caught movement, Vitz.

I know you have your doubts, Vitz. There are other suppliers previously noted that you can also support. Either way supports the movement.

Regards.
Mike Kirda