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Kalkbreath

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Even I have a hard time arguing the validity of this authors claim.{and I even argue with my coral just for fun? Any one else want to chime in?............ http://www.fisherycrisis.com/strangelove.html ............THE EFFECTS OF FISHING AND WHALING ACTIVITIES ON THE GLOBAL CARBON CYCLE....in our ongoing experiment, (pulling everything that we can catch out of the sea), are we working towards the creation of a human-induced, modern “Strangelove Ocean”...a sea bereft of life, that exhales CO2?
by Debbie MacKenzie


ABSTRACT:

An increase in atmospheric CO2 is an expected consequence of removal of the marine biota. It is demonstrated that the progressive fishing-induced biomass depletion of the world’s ocean is a more plausible explanation for what has triggered the rising CO2 in the atmosphere, than is our more recent history of burning fossil fuels. The time frame of the effect (rising CO2) fits more closely to the proposed cause (fishing). Proof for the long-term trend in biomass depletion is found by examining the contrasting pictures of abundant marine species pre-fishing and the life-depleted status of the world’s ocean today. The realization that biomass depletion has “bottom-up” effects as well as “top-down” ones leads to the inevitable conclusion that marine primary productivity is functioning at a significantly lower level now than it did in the past, when the ocean-atmosphere maintained a steady carbon balance.

Humans living today cannot remember the great abundance of sea life that existed even 500 years ago...but the ocean can. Deep water circulation patterns today bring carbon to the surface in ocean upwelling areas, in the same manner and quantity as they always have. This carbon is “exhaled” to the atmosphere in a process known as “outgassing.” What comes out of the sea is “very old” carbon, the memory of marine primary production that took place centuries ago. The deep water contains a vast pool of carbon, and it circulates only very slowly; the average turnover time may be about 1000 years. For many thousands of years the ocean and atmosphere maintained a carbon balance, and atmospheric levels were steady, but no longer. “New” carbon cycled into the deep water annually balanced the amount that was cycled out...but a rather long lag time exists between the two. Due to the drop in marine primary productivity, todays carbon input to the deep water falls significantly short of what is required to balance the amount that the ocean sends out via “outgassing.” Due to the 1000 year lag time between the input and output ends of the cycle, readjustment will take a while. The ocean and atmosphere are seeking a new state of carbon balance. The amount of CO2 exhaled annually by the ocean today represents the average amount of carbon put into the deep pool on a yearly basis over the last 1000 years. Due to the fishing-induced imbalance, CO2 levels in the atmosphere are rising. For the past two centuries the sea has “exhaled” larger amounts of CO2 than it has “inhaled.” This is an unrecognized consequence of human fishing, and continued fishing will only exacerbate the situation.

INTRODUCTION

“Strangelove Ocean,” is a colorful label once used by a serious research scientist (and movie buff?) to describe the condition of the Earth’s ocean immediately following the mass extinction of the dinosaurs (the episode that happened 65 million years ago). At that time it seems that the majority of living things in the sea experienced relatively sudden death...hence his reference to the effects of the Doomsday machine in the 1960’s SciFi movie “Dr. Strangelove.” The term “Strangelove ocean” is still used in serious scientific work because it provides a useful model of the physical functional processes in the sea that continue in the absence of life, and also the contrasting effects that occur as the result of the addition of life to the sea (e.g. Shaffer, 1993).

One predictable effect of the removal of a large fraction of marine life is that significant amounts of CO2 will be released from the sea to the atmosphere via a process known as “outgassing.” That is what happened following the dinosaur extinction, CO2 levels in the atmosphere rose to a very high level following that event, and it took millions of years for the reaccumulation of sea life to draw atmospheric CO2 back down to levels similar to those that we might enjoy. The recent evolution of large-scale fishing and whaling activities by terrestrial animals is relentlessly removing the life from the Earth’s ocean, and will have the same ultimate effect on the sea - a lifeless “desert” will be created, a “Strangelove ocean,” - and the same atmospheric consequences will ensue. The “experiment” has been underway for several centuries and is progressing nicely, CO2 levels in the atmosphere have been rising as predicted, rising ever higher as the sea life forms are increasingly depleted....the problem is, the humans running the experiment seem to have not the foggiest idea of what they are doing to the planet.

A DYING SEA WILL PREDICTABLY EXHALE CO2 <==> AND EARTH’S OCEAN IS DYING!

Recognition of the fact that the amount of life in the sea has been decreasing since we began fishing, brings us to the admission that the ocean is now slowly “dying,” and it has been for quite some time. The CO2 exhalations of the depleted sea are not a thing to watch for in the future, the change has already been demonstrated in records from the recent past. In recent decades the concentration of CO2 in the Earth’s atmosphere has risen into a range unprecedented during the last few million years.

Another point, fossil records indicate that there was a significant occurrence of unusual plankton blooms in the “Strangelove ocean” following the terminal Cretaceous event. Reassuring ourselves about the abundance of plankton, and that plankton levels look “normal” is not enough to prove that the ocean is not exhaling more CO2 than it is inhaling. That critical factor, the amount of CO2 ultimately taken in by the sea’s “biological pump,” is determined by the whole scope and vibrancy of the entire living marine web. Implying net CO2 uptake from plankton measurements alone is not possible. Unusual plankton blooms followed the extinction of the dinosaurs?....unusual plankton blooms are also increasingly emerging as a feature in our own experimentally altered ocean....is something “strange” happening at sea?

This author proposes that human fishing and whaling acitivity has resulted in an increasingly nitrogen-deficient sea, and thereby has caused a progressive slowing of the “biological carbon pump” and disruption of the pre-fishing balance that characterized the planetary carbon cycle in recent millenia.

FISHING INDUCED MARINE BIOMASS DEPLETION
VS.
FOSSIL FUEL EMISSIONS

--which is the greater contributor to the rising concentration of atmospheric carbon dioxide?

Operating on the assumption (a not commonly accepted, but intuitively obvious, one) that the fishing industry has caused a progressive loss of overall marine biomass, comparing the time scales of the fishing industry with that of the recently rising CO2 trend, makes an interesting exercise. This is not to say that fossil fuel emissions are having zero impact on the atmosphere, it merely points out that the impact of the missing sea life appears to be a much greater one. The data seem to fit together better.

The records of the CO2 rise and the rise in fossil fuel emission, how closely do they match? It presents a surprisingly poor correlation. Prior to 1800, CO2 levels in the Earth’s atmosphere had stabilized at approximately 280 ppm for a period of at least 10,000 years. The current increase began at the turn of the nineteenth century, 60 years before the beginning of the industrial revolution (1860), in fact a substantial rise was recorded well before that time.

“INITIAL INCREASES IN CO2 PREDATE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION.”

This is an important clue, and it is one that has not been overlooked by the researchers. But it presents a perplexing question because CAUSE clearly must precede EFFECT. So, there had to be another anthropogenically-induced net source of CO2 to the atmosphere prior to 1860. In the search for the source of excess CO2 pre-1860, scientists have concluded that it was the result of land-clearing practices and wood burning at the time. Therefore, at some point, the official explanation for the rise in atmospheric CO2 changed from “fossil fuel emissions” to “fossil fuel emissions plus land clearing.”

Land-clearing has obviously continued since 1860, with a shift in the activity from northern temperate areas to tropical ones in more recent times. The absolute effect of land-clearing on CO2 levels remains hard to pinpoint however, since areas where trees regrow (new growth forests) are carbon sinks, as opposed to old growth forests which appeared to exist in an approximate carbon balance with the atmosphere. Also, human activity may have supressed the baseline level of forest fires, therefore preventing some release of CO2 from wood-burning that would have occurred naturally. Another observation has been that some of our changes in land use, for example the culture of certain crops, results in carbon fixation at higher rates that the natural undisturbed vegetation would have accomplished. Terrestrial sources and sinks of carbon have been studied in great detail in recent years, and it has been increasingly revealed that terrestrial ecosystems, even the human-altered ones like North America, are surprisingly effective as carbon sinks.
 

mkirda

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Kalkbreath":2mw5wn6f said:
by Debbie MacKenzie

She posted on Coral List for a while until some few scientists started to debunk her posts. While I was off the list for a while, she disappeared.

All of her ideas are up on the Fisheries Crisis website. I have not visited it in well over a year, but it was up there with sites devoted to Yeti, benefits of magnetic bracelets and UFOs.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

mkirda

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Kalkbreath":1fm450fj said:
Do you remember any of the points that were debunked?....Thanks

Not off-hand. You might search the Coral list archives.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

Kalkbreath

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mkirda":etq6vttt said:
Kalkbreath":etq6vttt said:
Is that coral list .com ? Thanks

At least one of them was archived:
http://www.coral.noaa.gov/lists/nutrien ... hread.html

One of at least four threads from Google.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
I did not find many effective rebuffs of her data.............Has anyone been able to explain the 1942 -47 WWII era decline in CO2 levels? How about the co2 over the water being greater the on land? I understand the coral bleaching issue has some holes in it as it relates to depleted fish levels.......but wow , Her last post sure demonstrates that for all the data collected on the subject.........we still have little in the way of conclusions....Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:45:06 -0300
To: [email protected]
From: Debbie MacKenzie <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Biomass depletion in the big picture

Bob,

At 10:06 PM 5/28/01 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Debbie,
>
>I will resume the discussion when you can come up with a testable hypothesis
>that is based on:
>1. valid biogeochemical equations;
>2. valid mass-balance algebraic equations;
>3. supporting citations from the peer-reviewed scientific literature;
>and/or
>4. data or well-formulated logical arguments refuting the published
>findings you wish to ignore.
>

Your third and fourth conditions are the ones that I thought that I had met
in my article: http://www.fisherycrisis.com/strangelove

Have you taken the time to read it yet?

What do you make of the concidental timing of the CO2 rise and the
progression of the fishing industry? And the theory that supports the
contention that a decrease in marine biota will cause an ocean-atmosphere
readjustment involving an increase in atmospheric CO2? (not my idea, backed
up by published, peer-reviewed references, if you read it.) Also, the key
question that the whole theory hinges on, is whether or not the total
marine biomass has been diminished over the course of the history of human
fishing. The references that you pointed me to do not address this
question, and this question is critical. To disprove my hypothesis, there
needs to be evidence somewhere that the overall marine productivity has NOT
been falling. I offered published evidence that it has been dropping, for
instance the record from the baleen of the bowhead whales.

>In the meantime, recommended reading:
>
>Field, C.B., Behrenfeld, M.J., Randerson, J.T., and Falkowski, P., 1998,
>Primary production of the biosphere: Integrating terrestrial and oceanic
>components: Science, v. 281, p. 237-240.
>--- Message -- Oceanic net primary production is approx 50 PgC/yr, (=5E16
>g) phytoplankton turnover time is 2-6 days, so standing biomass averages
>about 5E14gC. Annual fisheries harvest is around 5E11 gC (as previously
>discussed), or 0.1% of primary producer (not total) biomass. Whether
>expressed as C or N, this extraction is trivial compared to the overall
>inventory, the measurement uncertainties, and both intra-annual and
>interannual natural fluctuations.
>

A quote from the article: "Our results based on time-averaged data are
likely to charcterize typical NPP from this time period but certainly miss
key anomalies such as ENSO, as well as progressive global changes."

Therefore no trend in NPP has been revealed in this work. Here are 2 more
quotes from that article:

"In terrestrial ecosystems, it is relatively straightforward, in principle,
to determine NPP from incremental increases in biomass..."

"Because of the rapid turnover of oceanic plant biomass, even large
increases in ocean NPP will not result in substantial carbon storage
through changes in phytoplankton standing stock."

They measure accumulation of plant tissue (trunks, branches, roots) that
are not involved in photosynthesis, when trying to determine terrestrial
NPP. And this is considered a valid approach. Yet when assessing the marine
system, they only look at the phytoplankton segment/biomass, since that
represents "the plants." They are looking for phytoplankton to accomplish
"carbon storage" by amassing more phytoplankton. However, the phytoplankton
are analogous only to the leaves on the terrestrial trees (the actual
photosynthesizing units), the analogy to growth of trunks, roots, etc., in
the sea is the accumulation of standing stocks of fish. That's where the
photosynthesizing units in the sea store their carbon...as opposed to the
treetrunks on land.

And I do not see where those authors tried to compare their NPP estimates
to a mass-balance with fisheries removals. And regarding your mass-balance
observation, what did you think of my comments to the effect that nitrogen
functions as building block and catalyst both for the organic pump?

>Pahlow, M., and Riebesell, U., 2000, Temporal trends in deep ocean Redfield
>ratios: Science, v. 287, p. 831-833.
>--- Message -- Measurements of deepwater chemistry over time show a rising
>N:P ratio in the N. Atlantic, and increased export production in the N.
>Pacific (which incidentally, is identified as Fe- rather than N-limited).
>Neither lends much support to the idea of productivity limitation by N
>reduction.
>

One key message from this work: "These findings imply that the biological
part of the marine carbon cycle currently is NOT in steady state."
(consistent with my points - no? Today's carbon cycle models assume the
opposite, that it IS in a steady state.)

Also, the possible reasons for the rising N:P ratio (without increasing
AOU, "apparent oxygen utilization," which would be expected if enhanced
N-fertilized primary productivity was the cause), in the North Atlantic
Ocean included "any process weakening export production, such as reduced
nutrient transport to the surface ocean due to declining vertical
mixing..." (the development of the open ocean N-shortage that I suspect,
would predictably "weaken export production") I can imagine that the N:P
ratio could rise as a result of fishing depletion since fishing removes
both N and P. The ocean has an active mechanism, albeit slow, to restore N
(nitrogen-fixation), but no means to actively restore P ... therefore
rising N:P ratio is quite plausibe and consistent with my ideas, it seems
to me.

This study did NOT report rising N-CONTENT in the deep ocean.

>Keeling, C.D., Whorf, T.P., Wahlen, M., and van der Plicht, J., 1995,
>Interannual extremes in the rate of rise of atmospheric carbon dioxide:
>Nature, v. 375, p. 666-670.
>--- Message -- Compare curves of atmospheric CO2 and fossil fuel emissions
>(over nearly half a century). Not only is there a correspondence that
>defies classification as coincidence, but the anomalies show that biotic
>effects have also been quite consistent , and rather minor in variability
>(certainly with no evidence for a systematically increasing offset as
>fisheries harvest increased).
>

This requires a convoluted explanation to account for the fact that the
first 20 years of the data fit with the fossil fuel emission data in one
way (seemingly 55.9% of airborne CO2 fraction accumulated in the atmosphere
each year)..and the second 20 years did not.

"Our double-deconvolution calculation suggests that the oceans typically
are a larger sink for atmospheric CO2 during El Nino event than
otherwise..." This agrees with my statements that the atmosphere is
acutely sensitive to changes in ocean currents and accompanying
"outgassing" of CO2. Regarding the ocean becoming a "larger sink" during El
Nino...that's strange because it's rather well known that fish production
tends to drop at those times. Rather than becoming a "larger sink" the
ocean more likely becomes a "smaller source" during El Ninos.

"In summary, the slowing down of the rate of rise of atmospheric CO2 from
1989 to 1993, seen in our data and confirmed by other measurements, is
partially explained (about 30%) by the reduction in growth rate of
industrial CO2 emissions that occurred after 1979. We further propose that
warming of surface water in advance of this slowdown caused an anomalous
rise in atmospheric CO2, accentuating the subsequent slowdown, while the
terrestrial biosphere, perhaps by sequestering carbon in a delayed response
to the same warming, caused most of the slowdown itself."

This is what I mean by a "convoluted explanation." There are some large lag
times between cause and effect there, for example 10 years between reducing
the growth rate of emissions and slowing the rise rate of CO2. Also the
warming that caused a see-saw (first caused CO2 to go up, then a delayed
reaction by terr. plants brought it down) is a bit of a stretch. My take on
it: the rate of rise in atmospheric CO2 slowed down beginning in 1989 - the
same year that wild fishery yields peaked (and have stabilized thereafter)
- so the slowdown in rate of marine biomass removal nicely coincides with
the slowdown in rising atmospheric CO2 levels.

>Kleypas, J.A., Buddemeier, R.W., Archer, D., Gattuso, J.-P., Langdon, C.,
>and Opdyke, B.N., 1999, Geochemical consequences of increased atmospheric
>carbon dioxide on coral reefs: Science, v. 284, p. 118-120.
>And
>Ware, J.R., Smith, S.V., and Reaka-Kudla, M.L., 1992, Coral reefs: sources
>or sinks of atmospheric CO2?: Coral Reefs, v. 11, p. 127-130.
>--- Message -- Calcium carbonate production is a sink for carbon (extracted
>from the marine DIC reservoir) but a source of atmospheric CO2. And, for
>obligate shallow-water calcifiers, carbonate ion may be or soon become a
>limiting nutrient.
>

These concerns about the effects of rising CO2 on seawater pH, carbonate
saturation, and ease of calcification for marine organisms....I do not
dispute. This work still does not question the SOURCE of the rising CO2,
which is what I'm trying to get at. These scenarios would be the same
whether the CO2 came from terrestrial emissions or ocean-atmosphere carbon
imbalance, IMO.


>Moffat, A.S., 1998, Global nitrogen overload problem grows critical:
>Science, v. 279, p. 988-989.
>--- Message -- (with references) Mobilization of fixed N to the ocean has
>dramatically increased, particularly in coastal regions (which supply most
>of the world fisheries harvest).
>

A brief intro, really, to this work that Moffat recommends:

Human Alteration of the Global Nitrogen Cycle: Causes and Consequence. by
Peter M. Vitousek, Chair, John Aber, Robert W. Howarth, Gene E. Likens,
Pamela A. Matson,
David W. Schindler, William H. Schlesinger, and G. David Tilman
online at: http://esa.sdsc.edu/tilman.htm

>From Vitousek et al. "In large river basins, the majority of nitrogen that
arrives is probably broken down by denitrifying bacteria and released to
the atmosphere as nitrogen gas or nitrous oxide." (i.e. it doesn't
translate into more fish)

Also, this is another nice one: Oceanic Sources and Sinks
(Fred Mackenzie, Karen von Damm, Dave DeMaster, Tom Church, Billy Moore)
http://www.joss.ucar.edu/joss_psg/proje ... ess/paper_
two.html

>From this article: "Water flux times the riverine composition cannot be
simply translated into net oceanic source terms without intimate knowledge
of biogeochemical and exchange reactions either at the transient saline
boundary of a river plume, or within the more permanent mixing zone of a
confined estuary and attendant sinks." And this intimate knowledge is
seriously lacking.

Another interesting observation from Fred Mackenzie et at. "The Atlantic
Ocean accumulates much more calcium carbonate than the Pacific because the
Atlantic deep waters have a higher pH (i.e. less corrosive to CaCO3) than
those in the Pacific..." (That helps to convince me that the cessation of
North Atlantic fishing during WWII allowed a partial recovery of the marine
biota, and consequently a significant global CO2 drawdown. Perhaps the
Atlantic marine biota represents a stronger "biological carbon pump" than
the Pacific?)

Debbie MacKenzie
 

mkirda

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Kalkbreath":1b88xqis said:
I did not find many effective rebuffs of her data.............Has anyone been able to explain the 1942 -47 WWII era decline in CO2 levels? How about the co2 over the water being greater the on land? I understand the coral bleaching issue has some holes in it as it relates to depleted fish levels.......but wow , Her last post sure demonstrates that for all the data collected on the subject.........we still have little in the way of conclusions.

Kalk,

The only way to look at this issue is to go back and read the source material, and, more importantly, have enough of a background to understand it.

I recall when reading the thread way back that she understood pieces of the puzzle, but didn't understand enough of the conceptual framework to see how the pieces fit together. So, she came to some interesting, but flawed, conclusions. At least one response to her was that she needed to go and read a basic ecology textbook so that she could understand the conceptual framework first- advice I find sounds eerily familiar. :D

Beyond that, I have no further comment, nor am I likely to. I have neither the time nor the inclination to go back and read the source material. There are maybe a half dozen people on this list with enough understanding of the subject matter to guide you through it- Maybe you'll have better luck getting one of the other five involved. Although, with Peter's response, you're probably down to four... :wink:

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

Kalkbreath

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I read the thread ......from the beginning ......She was never given an answer as to why the corals in the cleanest water {not the hottest}{or the most polluted}seem to be the ones to bleach most often and the most intensely.......Worldwide.........The idea that these corals are starving and thus have less energy to toward off stress.........was never discounted .....And it sure seems that the responders {Eric Bornermen among them } seemed to have a very negative response to a new idea , one they obviously had never contemplated before...... but it is the greater point of CO2 increase in the atmosphere and how there seems to be a direct connection to world food fish collection ,that is compelling to say the least........ The fact that there seems to be little data to support fossil fuel burning and CO2 build up........ is also quite odd...........?
 

Kalkbreath

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PeterIMA":3hub2vc4 said:
Kalk, Give it a rest. Its Christmas.

Peter
................................................................................................"BUT DO THEY KNOW ITS CHRISTMAS TIME AT ALL?" [Band aide } ................................the coral polyps that is ....? Like the children of Africa ......the coral polyps are starving .......all the while , we in the USA feast on food ment for the Sea.........? Ps. I had susui last nite......
 

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