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hdtran

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From webster:

Main Entry: gaol , gaol·er

chiefly British variant of JAIL, JAILER

Maybe he's a British expat in Canada, eh?
 
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So, I have read this entire thread for the very first time tonight, as a "end consumer" I am interested in what goes on in the industry, and I have been encouraged by another member to read in here.

I see a few things here

1. as long as naesco is on the side of stopping the so called cartel of cyanide, there is not a chance in the world that any progress will be made

2. I fail to understand how you people can keep arguing with him, its not doing any good, he sounds like a broken record

3. Gaol is used in some parts of Canada in place of the word jail

4. Reading this thread wore me out

Good night

Bryan
 

naesco

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hdtran":2fgydqc1 said:
From webster:

Main Entry: gaol , gaol·er

chiefly British variant of JAIL, JAILER

Maybe he's a British expat in Canada, eh?

Actually it is the reverse.
Jail is the the American version of the English "gaol".

But from now on I will spell it "jail" so that it is clear that they know where they are going.
 

naesco

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MARINE AQUARIUM COUNCIL

International Certification for the Quality and Sustainability
of Marine Aquarium Organisms … from Reef to Retail

MAC News 1st Quarter 2004

Director's Note

While the bulk of MAC operational work is currently focused on working with collectors and their communities to increase the supply of MAC Certified marine ornamentals coming from managed reef areas, developing the demand side is also key to promoting a sustainable marine aquarium trade and hobby. Private, public and corporate aquarists concerned about the future of the hobby and the coral reefs and communities of collectors who supply the trade recognize their important role and are working to educate others about it.

In covering the Marine Ornamentals '04 conference for the Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine, Doug Robbins notes, ' It is imperative that hobbyists demand healthy organisms that have a chance to live for a substantial period in their tanks and to put their money where their mouths are by being willing to pay a premium for such specimens. We must support our best providers-the conscientious collectors and risk-taking mariculturists.' Earlier in the same piece he says, 'Whatever the exact average mortality figures may be, even if they turn out to be somewhat lower [than the reported 30 to 60 percent], they are clearly unacceptable. MAC's solution is to work to establish 'standards and procedures' for each link in the chain to reduce mortality and to use a certification process to encourage participation. Ultimately choices will have to be made by hobbyists to support these efforts by insisting on livestock captured and moved by acceptable standards….'

Robert Tess, a Marine Aquarium Societies of North America (MASNA) board member, shared similar thoughts in the Winter 2004 issue of Marine Scene: 'Whether it's supporting organizations like CITES and MAC, demanding net caught fish, buying aqua-cultured corals or even just trading frags to newbies, every aquarist bears the responsibility for reef and marine life preservation.'

Hobbyist preferences for healthy organisms caught with non-destructive methods from managed fisheries will drive retailers to seek and support responsible collectors and wholesalers. This in turn will help conserve coral reefs, sustain the trade and ensure the health of the marine aquarium organisms that are moving … from Reef to Retail and into your aquarium!

MAC-Industry Partnership: Training for Post-Harvest Quality Control in Indonesia

The MAC regional office in Indonesia conducted training in post-harvest quality control for 20 fishermen in Tejakula sub-district, north Bali, in February. The fishermen, who represented fishermen's associations from the villages of Les and Tembok, improved their understanding of how to reduce stress in fish during collection, holding, packing and transport through the training provided by MAC and marine biologist (and Amblard employee) Vincent Chalias. Best practices in screening, stock rejection and purging were also covered. Illustrated handouts helped the participants understand issues during classroom discussion, which was followed by a practical session in the screening and packing area. While the professional marine ornamental fishermen who participated in the training have been collecting fish for most of their lives, they had been interested in assistance to ensure they are handling the fish carefully and effectively. A second training session is tentatively scheduled for early May for another group of fishermen in north Bali.

Tonga to Host MAC Certification Multi-Stakeholder Meeting

In February, two MAC Pacific staff visited Tonga to introduce MAC Certification to industry representatives, government ministers and other stakeholders of the marine aquarium trade. Keen interest was shown, and the visit was welcomed as a timely one. The Minister of Lands, Survey and Natural Resources, Hon. Fielakepa, offered his ministry's full support in co-hosting a multi-stakeholder workshop together with the Ministry of Fisheries and Agriculture. The Ministry of Lands, Survey and Natural Resources has the responsibility over the harvesting of corals.

'Tonga's marine aquarium industry has been around for a long time to become a major export of Tonga, and we would like to ensure it is done sustainably, said Hon Dr. Giulio Masasso T. Paunga, the Kingdom's Minister of Labour, Commerce, Industry and Tourism.

Hawaii Industry Begins Pre-Certification Work

In mid February, MAC hosted the first industry meeting for representatives from the Hawaii marine aquarium trade who have signed up to seek MAC Certification. A work plan and timetable for pre-certification activities was discussed and agreed upon at the Kailua-Kona meeting on the Big Island. For more on MAC work on the Big Island, read the project update in the SPC Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin #12, available at http://www.spc.int/coastfish/news/LRF/1 ... Rezal1.pdf.

A sustainable marine aquarium trade has the support of the Kailua-Kona community and is likely the most valuable near-shore fishery in the State of Hawaii, according to studies presented at the Marine Ornamentals '04 conference in March by John Parks (Community Conservation Network) and Jan Dierking (University of Hawaii M.S. candidate), respectively.

Expanding Supply Development in the Philippines

During the first quarter of 2004, the MAC Philippines team focused its efforts on identifying sites for certification training and capacity building in 2004, a program that is supported by USAID. Local governments have submitted letters of interest for MAC training in Palawan and Mindanao. For example, the Mayor of Cagayancillo, Palawan, has expressed strong support of the MAC program and assigned his Municipal Agriculture Officer (MAO) to take the lead in organizing the collectors in the area to join the MAC training. In response to these requests, the MAC team conducted a series of field assessments in these areas. Among the criteria considered were the extent of destructive fishing practices, support of local stakeholders, and species variety and abundance.

First MAC Certified Company in France

In January, Amblard Overseas Trading S.A. became the first importer and transshipper to achieve MAC Certification in France. Because MAC receives many questions about transshipment and because Amblard was the first transshipper to be assessed for MAC Certification, the MAC Accredited certifier was careful in its review of the company's compliance to the requirements of Clause 1.8 on Transshipment and Consolidation in the MAC Handling, Husbandry and Transport (HTT) Standard [ http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/subpage.asp?section=19 ]. For the only official list of MAC Certified facilities, visit the MAC website at http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/subpage. ... &section=3.

MAC Chemical Detection Testing and Monitoring Program Update

The MAC Board of Directors, at its most recent meeting, reviewed the work undertaken to implement the Chemical Detection Testing (CDT) Action Plan developed by MAC in the first part of 2003. Although the work was delayed due to time needed to prepare the testing facility for these experiments, Phase 1 was undertaken as planned and compared the performance of several CDT protocols and evaluated their applicability in supply countries and in collection areas (for example, the portability of the equipment and applicability of the procedures to field conditions). Phase 1 also considered alternative sample preparation methods, analysis protocols, and test apparatus and instruments.

Initial tests were undertaken in July 2003 in the CDT laboratories of Philippines Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources (BFAR), Quezon City, Manila. The tests revealed inconsistent correlations between cyanide exposure and quantity of cyanide detected in the fish samples following exposure. The use of CDT in relation to marine ornamental fisheries is complicated by numerous variables in the detection test, in the exposure parameters, in the fish characteristics and in the source of the chemical (click here to see Figure 1: Variables Relating to the Presence of Cyanide in the Marine Environment). Consequently, additional tests were conducted to evaluate the correlations in more controlled conditions that removed as many of the variables as possible.

The Phase 1a tests were again organized by BFAR and undertaken in their laboratory in Quezon City, Manila, by a team of their staff members and those from Merck & Co., Inc. Although the tests showed that all methods could detect presences of cyanide, no apparent correlation existed between a controlled level of cyanide exposure and the quantity of cyanide detected in fish samples following exposure. To ensure that the results are valid as a basis for further development of a CDT system, the MAC Board has agreed that the tests should be repeated and peer-reviewed by a third-party laboratory outside of the Philippines. This work is now being organized and will be conducted in a major university laboratory with experience in chemical detection and analysis.

The MAC Board also reviewed a draft MAC CDT Monitoring Program that defines the procedure for obtaining CDT samples from MAC Certified collectors and exporters and describes the actions to be taken if a MAC approved test method indicates the presence of a chemical such as cyanide within a fish from a MAC Certified collection area. The Board agreed to have the draft program peer reviewed. Those persons interested in being on the review panel should send a brief (no more than one page) resumé of their experience and expertise in this issue to [email protected]. It is hoped that the MAC CDT Monitoring Program will be finalized and operational in mid 2004.
MAC Staff Changes: Americas and Pacific Director

David Vosseler, MAC Americas and Pacific Director, will be moving on to other pursuits, following his significant contributions to MAC in its formative years. David was instrumental in coordinating the complex international multi-stakeholder process of developing the MAC Standards. Following the successful launch of MAC Certification, David led MAC efforts with the industry in North America that has resulted in three importers and seven retailers becoming MAC Certified. He was the point person for MAC at US trade shows, as well as at hobbyist conferences, the US Coral Reef Task Force and elsewhere. In addition, over the last year he has overseen MAC efforts in the Pacific that are now bringing new MAC Certified supply on line from Fiji and soon in several other areas. David's input on the development of MAC's field extension system and the development of facility-support software were invaluable. David continues to be a strong supporter for MAC, noting that 'MAC is the single most important coral reef conservation effort underway in the world today.' David has been a core member of the MAC team since the early days, and the staff members at MAC wish him well in his future endeavors.
Fourth MAC Standard to Cover Mariculture and Aquaculture Management

In January 2004, MAC commenced work on its fourth international standard for the marine aquarium industry. As with the other MAC Standards, the Mariculture and Aquaculture Management (MAM) Standard will be produced and reviewed through an international multi-stakeholder and transparent process based upon the inputs from a Standards Advisory Group (SAG). The development process will be steered by a small experts group and the MAC Secretariat (click here to see Figure 2: MAM Standard Development Timeline). It is hoped that certification to the MAC MAM Standard will commence (following a testing phase) in late 2004.

The MAM Standard covers the culturing of both hatchery-reared larvae and wild caught post-larval organisms. The MAC Ecosystem and Fishery Management (EFM) and Collection, Fishing and Holding (CFH) Standards will be amended slightly by the additional requirements to cover the sustainable management of post-larval collection areas and post-larval collection methods, respectively.

Persons interested in participating as a member of the MAM SAG should send their contact details to [email protected]

MAC Board of Directors for 2004

At its most recent meeting, the MAC Board of Directors elected several new members to fill vacancies and reelected several members to continue on the Board. Although Board members are elected and serve as individuals, the Board seeks to maintain a diversity that represents the scope of stakeholders and geographic areas important to MAC's mission. The Board is composed of up to 15 elected members, a majority of which must be non-industry affiliated. The MAC Board provides overall guidance and oversight to the work of the MAC Secretariat in its activities. The current MAC Board members and the organizations with whom they are affiliated are as follows:

- Bruce Bunting, MAC Board Chair (World Wildlife Fund - US)
- Lolita Ty, MAC Board Vice Chair (Philippine Tropical Fish Export Association)
- Frank Vorhies, MAC Board Vice Chair (Earthwatch - Europe)
- Keith Davenport, MAC Board Treasurer (Ornamental Aquatic Trade Association)
- John Brandt (Marine Aquarium Societies of North America)
- Steven Broad (TRAFFIC International)
- Christopher Buerner (MAC Certified Importer)
- Randolph Goodlett (American Marinelife Dealers Association)
- Rex Horoi (Foundations of the Peoples of the South Pacific)
- Marshall Meyers (Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council)
- Joko Purwanto (AKKII - Indonesia Coral, Shell and Ornamental Fish Association)
- Jan Steffen (UNESCO Southeast Asia and Terangi-Indonesia Coral Reef Foundation)
- Johannes Subijanto (The Nature Conservancy - Indonesia)
- Doug Warmolts (American Zoos and Aquariums Association)

MAC Outreach Efforts

MAC Communications Director Sylvia Spalding provided a presentation on MAC outreach activities to the US Coral Reef Task Force, meeting in February in Washington, DC, and an update on MAC Certification developments to the staff of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). The PPT presentations will be posted at http://www.coralreef.gov/meet.cfm#11 and at http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/programs/n ... inars.html.

At the Marine Ornamentals '04 conference in Honolulu in early March, plenary presentations were delivered by MAC Board Members Marshall Meyers on invasive species and John Brandt on the role of hobbyists and by MAC Executive Director Paul Holthus on the future of the trade. Other MAC staff members chaired a variety of sessions and staffed the MAC booth, where 50 attendees signed up for the MAC News. Sherry Larkin of the University of Florida presented the preliminary results on Hobbyist Preference, which indicates that 51% of hobbyists surveyed are familiar with MAC (see http://agsurveys.org/hobby/). Aquarium Fish magazine hosted the conference reception and has expressed interest in furthering its conservation partnership with MAC.

MAC Americas and the Pacific Director David Vosseler attended the American Pet Products Manufacturers Association (APPMA) show in New Orleans in March. APPMA graciously donated free booth space to MAC. Through venues such as these MAC continues to work with the dry goods sector of the trade to develop ways in which they can support MAC's efforts around the globe.

Certification Update to Be Distributed in May

The new quarterly newsletter Certification Update will be launched in May 2004 (rather than March 2004 as previously announced). The newsletter is designed to assist and support the growing number of MAC Certified companies and collectors groups, those responsible for MAC Certified collection areas (such as Collection Area Management Plan committees) and MAC Accredited certifiers.

Upcoming Events

April 16-18, 2004: 16th Annual Pet Industry Spring Trade Show (Atlantic City, New Jersey, USA) with presentation on MAC Certification by MAC Executive Director Paul Holthus and MAC Certified retailer Patrick Donston and the MAC exhibit booth. http://www.hhbacker.com

May 13-16: InterZoo 2004 (Nurnberg, Germany) http://www.wwpsa.com/i4a/calendar/details.cfm?id=147

June 4-6:Second International Marine Aquarium Conference (Chicago, Illinois, USA) http://www.theimac.org

July 18-22: National Marine Educators Association 2004 Conference (St. Petersburg, Florida, USA) http://www.floridamarine.org/education/ ... sp?id=2088

Sept. 9-12: China International Recreation Fisheries and Aquaria 2004 conference (Guangzhou Jinhan Exhibition Center, Beijing, China) http://www.aquariachina.com

Sept. 10-12: Marine Aquarium Conference of North America XVI (Boston, Massachusetts, USA) http://www.macnaboston.com/

Sept. 22-23: SuperZoo (Las Vegas, Nevada, USA) http://www.wwpsacom/i4a/forms/form.cfm?id=41

Oct. 8-10: Backer's 37th Annual Pet Industry Christmas Trade Show and Educational Conference (Chicago, Illinois, USA) http://www.hhbacker.com/

Dec 5-10: Sixth International Aquarium Congress (Monterey, California, USA) http://www.iac2004.org

MAC in the News

'La pêche des poisons de lagon pour aquarium en voie d'être réglementée en Polynésie.' Tahiti Presse. Jan. 1, 2004. [In French]

'Fiji: Company Receives First Pacific MAC Certification.' AquaNews. Jan. 29, 2004.

'Toward MAC certification of Hawaiian Islands collectors: A project update,' by Rezal Kusumaamtmadja, John Parks, Scott Atkinson and Jan Dierking. SPC Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin #12. http://www.spc.int/coastfish/news/LRF/1 ... Rezal1.pdf

'Project update: Developing industry standards for the live reef food fish trade,' by Rezal Kusumaatmadja, Geoffrey Muldoon and Peter Scott. SPC Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin #12. http://www.spc.int/coastfish/news/LRF/1 ... Rezal2.pdf

'Fiji Wake-Up Call,' by Robert Tess Marine Scene. Winter 2004.

'Saving Nemo: aquariums, once water-filled cabinets of curiosities, exert potent economic forces that can foster conservation in the wild,' by Melanie Stiassny. Natural History. March 1, 2004.

'Consumer Corner.' Focus. (WWF members bulletin) March/April 2004.

'Media Review,' by Doug Robbins. Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... /media.htm

'Hobbyists Preferences: Preliminary Internet Survey Results,' by Sherry Larkin, Liliana Alencastro, Charles Jacoby and Robert Degner. http://agsurveys.org/hobby
 
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is this the 'evidence' you have that a cdt is 'right around the corner' ?

:lol:


you'll have to do far better than that :roll:
 

naesco

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vitz":39dg3bm6 said:
is this the 'evidence' you have that a cdt is 'right around the corner' ?

:lol:


you'll have to do far better than that :roll:

No but it looks like someone else is very interested!
I would be very worried were I part of the cyanide cartel.

I note that they are looking for volunteers to sit on the reviw panel. I would like to nominate Mary because of her passion, Steve or was it Mike because he knew who all the bad guys are and Dr. Rubec because he is undoubtedly the expert on cyanide and its effects on fish, the reef and the critters that live therein.

Now before I am asked, let me say for obvious reasons I cannot sit on this review panel but I would love to be part of the enforcement panel which will follow soon.
Happy Easter everyone :D
 

JennM

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naesco":2ml5ts32 said:
Jenn
I can understand your post. When I first posted that prosecution was the only answer to the cyanide cartel I would have liked to have proceded immediately.
However, both the war in Iraq and the election of Attilla the Hun in California ocurred and as a result the right wing Bush support soared. Many said it would have been impossible to get anything going at that time and I listened to that advice.
Now that, as predicted by the rest of the world, Iraq is a total failure the opportunity exists for America to show leadership in important things like saving the reefs. IMO industry has two options. Support reeform or face closure.

As for blowing smoke you need to know that I never inhaled.


WTF????

What colour is the sky in your world, Wayne?

Because you sure as hell aren't living on the same planet as I do. You need to get outside the Canadian box and learn to think for yourself for a change.

Hail to George W. Bush!!!

And for what it's worth, I am bloody well ASHAMED of the Canadian government for not supporting the COALITION (not just the US) in Iraq. Curiously most of my Canadian friends and family I have spoken with about this did not share the government's point of view... and the public demonstrations of support for Coalition troops did restore some of my faith... However this shouldn't be the place to discuss partisan politics, so I won't take it any further than that, lest it become sump fodder.

Wayne - you really really need a reality check.

Jenn
 

JennM

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naesco":rb8ezsjb said:
It is a lot easier bashing MAC they facing the reality that something must be done.
Engage in semanics all you want but the reality is that as you engage, the cyanide cartel in having its way with the Philippine reefs.

Serious training will be a reality when a CDT is in place and violators of America's law face justice and its punishment.
So Steve, when you are finished with the prose, why don't you make a call and let the justice system determine which of the cyanide cartel is most deserving of being first at the docket.

You know, Wayne, it's easy for you to sit back in your comfy chair, in your comfy house, and spew NONSENSE about how you and your merry men can save and reform the trade - when you don't even work in the industry, nor have you ever worked in the industry! Do you even have an aquarium?

When you've walked a mile in the shoes of ANY of us here who live and breathe this industry day and night, then perhaps you might earn some respect -- but not if you continue to blow smoke (inhaled or otherwise).

You really have no clue, do you?

How many years have you worked in the industry?

How many times have you been to PI, or Indonesia?

How many divers have you trained?

How many clean suppliers have you supported?

How many dollars did YOU give to the netting fund?

Not all of us can answer all of these questions in the affirmative, but most of us here can answer many of the questions, enough to qualify us to know what the heck we are talking about.

You are the Armchair Khan.

BTW ... take a lesson from Khan -- he slept for 100 years on a derelict spacecraft, woke up all out of place and got himself banished to a desolate planet and in the end, he died.

Not a very good role model...

Jenn
 

JennM

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knucklehead":3qtr2i8g said:
So, I have read this entire thread for the very first time tonight, as a "end consumer" I am interested in what goes on in the industry, and I have been encouraged by another member to read in here.

I see a few things here

1. as long as naesco is on the side of stopping the so called cartel of cyanide, there is not a chance in the world that any progress will be made

2. I fail to understand how you people can keep arguing with him, its not doing any good, he sounds like a broken record

3. Gaol is used in some parts of Canada in place of the word jail

4. Reading this thread wore me out

Good night

Bryan

Touchee, Bryan...

:)
 

JennM

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naesco":fbgj34j5 said:
MARINE AQUARIUM COUNCIL

International Certification for the Quality and Sustainability
of Marine Aquarium Organisms … from Reef to Retail

MAC News 1st Quarter 2004

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.....

blah blahblahblahblahblahblah

Blah blah.

Blech.
 

MaryHM

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I note that they are looking for volunteers to sit on the reviw panel. I would like to nominate Mary because of her passion, Steve or was it Mike because he knew who all the bad guys are and Dr. Rubec because he is undoubtedly the expert on cyanide and its effects on fish, the reef and the critters that live therein.

You couldn't pay me to be on any review panel of MAC's. Like I said in an earlier post- I have much better things to spend my time on. And I can't think of a worst waste of time and energy than serving on a MAC review (read: Everyone comes to the conclusion MAC wants- no independent thinking allowed) panel.
 

naesco

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JennM":8k8nktih said:
naesco":8k8nktih said:
It is a lot easier bashing MAC they facing the reality that something must be done.
Engage in semanics all you want but the reality is that as you engage, the cyanide cartel in having its way with the Philippine reefs.

Serious training will be a reality when a CDT is in place and violators of America's law face justice and its punishment.
So Steve, when you are finished with the prose, why don't you make a call and let the justice system determine which of the cyanide cartel is most deserving of being first at the docket.

You know, Wayne, it's easy for you to sit back in your comfy chair, in your comfy house, and spew NONSENSE about how you and your merry men can save and reform the trade - when you don't even work in the industry, nor have you ever worked in the industry! Do you even have an aquarium?
No
When you've walked a mile in the shoes of ANY of us here who live and breathe this industry day and night, then perhaps you might earn some respect -- but not if you continue to blow smoke (inhaled or otherwise).

You really have no clue, do you?
Unfortuneately for industry, I do.
How many years have you worked in the industry?
Nil
How many times have you been to PI, or Indonesia?
once 5 days
How many divers have you trained?
fishers none
How many clean suppliers have you supported?
All of them
How many dollars did YOU give to the netting fund?
a little
Not all of us can answer all of these questions in the affirmative, but most of us here can answer many of the questions, enough to qualify us to know what the heck we are talking about.

You are the Armchair Khan.

BTW ... take a lesson from Khan -- he slept for 100 years on a derelict spacecraft, woke up all out of place and got himself banished to a desolate planet and in the end, he died.

Not a very good role model...

Jenn
You see Jenn I anwered all of your questions, many in the affirmative.
 

naesco

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JennM":38x2y2ez said:
naesco":38x2y2ez said:
Jenn
I can understand your post. When I first posted that prosecution was the only answer to the cyanide cartel I would have liked to have proceded immediately.
However, both the war in Iraq and the election of Attilla the Hun in California ocurred and as a result the right wing Bush support soared. Many said it would have been impossible to get anything going at that time and I listened to that advice.
Now that, as predicted by the rest of the world, Iraq is a total failure the opportunity exists for America to show leadership in important things like saving the reefs. IMO industry has two options. Support reeform or face closure.

As for blowing smoke you need to know that I never inhaled.


WTF????

What colour is the sky in your world, Wayne?

Because you sure as hell aren't living on the same planet as I do. You need to get outside the Canadian box and learn to think for yourself for a change.

Hail to George W. Bush!!!

And for what it's worth, I am bloody well ASHAMED of the Canadian government for not supporting the COALITION (not just the US) in Iraq. Curiously most of my Canadian friends and family I have spoken with about this did not share the government's point of view... and the public demonstrations of support for Coalition troops did restore some of my faith... However this shouldn't be the place to discuss partisan politics, so I won't take it any further than that, lest it become sump fodder.

Wayne - you really really need a reality check.

Jenn

Jenn sorry but you need the reality check. Your Canadian friends are being polite. There was next to no support for the US Governemnt's Iraqi invasion and certainly no support for the US Governments continued occupation of Iraq here. There is a lot of support for the American people who lose their children needlessly ever hour. We weep for them.
The only demonstations are masssive demonstration against US war. The demonstrations you are referring to are the demonstrations of Canadian support for the victems of 11/9/04.

This Easter Sunday I got up and sat on my armchair with my children around me. Sadly some 600 to 700 American families will be missing one of their loved ones. DEAR GOD WHY??
We will shortly be off to Church and I will pray for them and I will pray for an end and I will pray for you.
Happy Easter
 

JennM

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naesco":10fb1uxf said:
This Easter Sunday I got up and sat on my armchair with my children around me. Sadly some 600 to 700 American families will be missing one of their loved ones. DEAR GOD WHY??
We will shortly be off to Church and I will pray for them and I will pray for an end and I will pray for you.
Happy Easter

Yeah and some 3500 families of many nationalites including Canada woke up this Easter/Passover without their loved ones, because of the 9/11 attacks. WHY? What did they do, except carry on the daily business of their lives.

::::SELF DELETED SERIOUS POLITICAL DIATRIBE::: (This just isn't the place for it....)

The most important answer IMO to my questions was how many years you've been in the industry -- if you could at least truthfully answer that you've worked in it for 6 months or so.... that might make a difference, provided you were in a position to make the decisions for the entity you worked for.

How do you know you've supported all the clean suppliers? Moral support, cheerleading doesn't count. You're asking us kick ass and take names, to give them to you.... so don't you already know who all the clean ones are? If you do, and you claim to support them, how can you do that if you aren't in the industry?

How many tanks do you have? How many fish have you bought over the years? And how do you KNOW if you can answer those two questions... how do you know you bought clean fish? I've been in the hobby 17 years and I know I've bought juiced fish -- before I knew better, and after -- even though I thought I was doing the right thing... and even now there's no guarantee, even though I'm choosier than most, IMO...

So how can you back up the claims?

IMO you're no different than any of the other non-indstry suits that claimed they could reform the trade -- except at least some of the others came across a bit more convincingly at least at first.

Thanks for the prayers, Wayne, one can never have enough of those.

Jenn
 
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JennM":3og4j9zf said:
knucklehead":3og4j9zf said:
So, I have read this entire thread for the very first time tonight, as a "end consumer" I am interested in what goes on in the industry, and I have been encouraged by another member to read in here.

I see a few things here

1. as long as naesco is on the side of stopping the so called cartel of cyanide, there is not a chance in the world that any progress will be made

2. I fail to understand how you people can keep arguing with him, its not doing any good, he sounds like a broken record

3. Gaol is used in some parts of Canada in place of the word jail

4. Reading this thread wore me out

Good night

Bryan

Touchee, Bryan...

:)

Now, now Jenn,
I can understand how Bryan feels. Reading these extremely long threads with their never-ending circles can be a daunting experience. :)

Bryan, don't go near Kalk's 12 page thread or you may just end up ill from the effects all of the spinning. Be glad he's not your retailer! :lol:

naesco,
It appears that the head of the PI cyanide cartel is arleady named. It's been mentioned in so many different threads it's not funny. But, since you need to be reminded, it's in this list. You figure it out.

- Bruce Bunting, MAC Board Chair (World Wildlife Fund - US)
- Lolita Ty, MAC Board Vice Chair (Philippine Tropical Fish Export Association)
- Frank Vorhies, MAC Board Vice Chair (Earthwatch - Europe)
- Keith Davenport, MAC Board Treasurer (Ornamental Aquatic Trade Association)
- John Brandt (Marine Aquarium Societies of North America)
- Steven Broad (TRAFFIC International)
- Christopher Buerner (MAC Certified Importer)
- Randolph Goodlett (American Marinelife Dealers Association)
- Rex Horoi (Foundations of the Peoples of the South Pacific)
- Marshall Meyers (Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council)
- Joko Purwanto (AKKII - Indonesia Coral, Shell and Ornamental Fish Association)
- Jan Steffen (UNESCO Southeast Asia and Terangi-Indonesia Coral Reef Foundation)
- Johannes Subijanto (The Nature Conservancy - Indonesia)
- Doug Warmolts (American Zoos and Aquariums Association)

MAC Chemical Detection Testing and Monitoring Program Update

The MAC Board of Directors, at its most recent meeting, reviewed the work undertaken to implement the Chemical Detection Testing (CDT) Action Plan developed by MAC in the first part of 2003. Although the work was delayed due to time needed to prepare the testing facility for these experiments, Phase 1 was undertaken as planned and compared the performance of several CDT protocols and evaluated their applicability in supply countries and in collection areas (for example, the portability of the equipment and applicability of the procedures to field conditions). Phase 1 also considered alternative sample preparation methods, analysis protocols, and test apparatus and instruments.

Initial tests were undertaken in July 2003 in the CDT laboratories of Philippines Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources (BFAR), Quezon City, Manila. The tests revealed inconsistent correlations between cyanide exposure and quantity of cyanide detected in the fish samples following exposure. The use of CDT in relation to marine ornamental fisheries is complicated by numerous variables in the detection test, in the exposure parameters, in the fish characteristics and in the source of the chemical (click here to see Figure 1: Variables Relating to the Presence of Cyanide in the Marine Environment). Consequently, additional tests were conducted to evaluate the correlations in more controlled conditions that removed as many of the variables as possible.

The Phase 1a tests were again organized by BFAR and undertaken in their laboratory in Quezon City, Manila, by a team of their staff members and those from Merck & Co., Inc. Although the tests showed that all methods could detect presences of cyanide, no apparent correlation existed between a controlled level of cyanide exposure and the quantity of cyanide detected in fish samples following exposure. To ensure that the results are valid as a basis for further development of a CDT system, the MAC Board has agreed that the tests should be repeated and peer-reviewed by a third-party laboratory outside of the Philippines. This work is now being organized and will be conducted in a major university laboratory with experience in chemical detection and analysis.

Am I wrong but isn't any cyanide exposure what we're looking for here, regardless of how much was used to juice the fish? What does it matter if the fish was tainted as a by-product of food fishing or just happended to swim threw a juice plumb before being caught? What ever the source of the cyanide is, it still needs to be stoped. MAC should have had all pieces of the puzzle put together, before opening it's big mouth. Now they're just playing catch up.
 

naesco

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Am I wrong but isn't any cyanide exposure what we're looking for here, regardless of how much was used to juice the fish? What does it matter if the fish was tainted as a by-product of food fishing or just happended to swim threw a juice plumb before being caught? What ever the source of the cyanide is, it still needs to be stoped. MAC should have had all pieces of the puzzle put together, before opening it's big mouth. Now they're just playing catch up.
_________________
Sally

I noted this too but came to the conclusion that they knew the answer but wanted a US authority (one that could be qualified in court as an expert witness) to verify the results.
It would be difficult to get US prosecutions with only a Philippine authority.

With a Merck test verified by the already approved IMA test verified by an expert US witness, prosecutions will be a slam dunk.

IMO Sally the only way to stop cyanide use is to prosecute those involved in the cartel and those at every level of industry who close their eyes to this issue.
How dear posters, can many of you continue to remain silent?
 
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naesco":ccb1clkq said:
I noted this too but came to the conclusion that they knew the answer but wanted a US authority (one that could be qualified in court as an expert witness) to verify the results.
It would be difficult to get US prosecutions with only a Philippine authority.

With a Merck test verified by the already approved IMA test verified by an expert US witness, prosecutions will be a slam dunk.

IMO Sally the only way to stop cyanide use is to prosecute those involved in the cartel and those at every level of industry who close their eyes to this issue.
How dear posters, can many of you continue to remain silent?

Wayne,
With all the different countries listed on the MAC board of directors seems to me that it's an international thing, not just US. Why should I have to pay for your court costs? Don't get me wrong, I would love to see an end to cyanide use world wide. Why is it even being produced?

There you go, a worthwhile project. END CYANIDE PRODUCTION

In this day and age there is no use for that particular product, expect to end life. PEROID That is what is was designed for. Why not go after the manufacterer's of such a deadly product.

No Wayne,
the only way to stop the use of cyanide is to end the production of cyanide.
 
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knowse":3mwnbd02 said:
naesco":3mwnbd02 said:
I noted this too but came to the conclusion that they knew the answer but wanted a US authority (one that could be qualified in court as an expert witness) to verify the results.
It would be difficult to get US prosecutions with only a Philippine authority.

With a Merck test verified by the already approved IMA test verified by an expert US witness, prosecutions will be a slam dunk.

IMO Sally the only way to stop cyanide use is to prosecute those involved in the cartel and those at every level of industry who close their eyes to this issue.
How dear posters, can many of you continue to remain silent?

Wayne,
With all the different countries listed on the MAC board of directors seems to me that it's an international thing, not just US. Why should I have to pay for your court costs? Don't get me wrong, I would love to see an end to cyanide use world wide. Why is it even being produced?

There you go, a worthwhile project. END CYANIDE PRODUCTION

In this day and age there is no use for that particular product, expect to end life. PEROID That is what is was designed for. Why not go after the manufacterer's of such a deadly product.

No Wayne,
the only way to stop the use of cyanide is to end the production of cyanide.

gold miners won't be too happy widdat :wink:
 
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knucklehead":1iv915dh said:
So, I have read this entire thread for the very first time tonight, as a "end consumer" I am interested in what goes on in the industry, and I have been encouraged by another member to read in here.

I see a few things here

1. as long as naesco is on the side of stopping the so called cartel of cyanide, there is not a chance in the world that any progress will be made

2. I fail to understand how you people can keep arguing with him, its not doing any good, he sounds like a broken record

3. Gaol is used in some parts of Canada in place of the word jail

4. Reading this thread wore me out

Good night

Bryan

Bry, I'm surprised, I thought you like all your information spoon-fed, and this took lots more time than going to those sites I linked you to for Lola would have. :P (To all those not in the know, we bust each other's chops for fun.) Really, Bry, the brother I never had. :) The more I get to know you...



knowse":1iv915dh said:
naesco,
It appears that the head of the PI cyanide cartel is arleady named. It's been mentioned in so many different threads it's not funny. But, since you need to be reminded, it's in this list. You figure it out.


- Bruce Bunting, MAC Board Chair (World Wildlife Fund - US)
- Lolita Ty, MAC Board Vice Chair (Philippine Tropical Fish Export Association)
- Frank Vorhies, MAC Board Vice Chair (Earthwatch - Europe)
- Keith Davenport, MAC Board Treasurer (Ornamental Aquatic Trade Association)
- John Brandt (Marine Aquarium Societies of North America)
- Steven Broad (TRAFFIC International)
- Christopher Buerner (MAC Certified Importer)
- Randolph Goodlett (American Marinelife Dealers Association)
- Rex Horoi (Foundations of the Peoples of the South Pacific)
- Marshall Meyers (Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council)
- Joko Purwanto (AKKII - Indonesia Coral, Shell and Ornamental Fish Association)
- Jan Steffen (UNESCO Southeast Asia and Terangi-Indonesia Coral Reef Foundation)
- Johannes Subijanto (The Nature Conservancy - Indonesia)
- Doug Warmolts (American Zoos and Aquariums Association)

Yep, knowse, I must admit that my JAW hit the floor when I read a certain person's name as being on the board. I'm still in the process of scraping it up, it's made quite a mess. Spoonfeeding the information, reminders, bloody post-its won't help here.

Thusly, my bloody-head sig guy.
lol.gif

(Cuz, if you can't laugh, you may as well shoot yourself now.)
 

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