The Right Way to Go!
- Thread starter Ad van Tage
- Start date
Welcome, Gracie!
Actually my comments were more directed toward my more learned colleagues, who continue to argue Kalk's ummm "interesting" notions. It is my supposition that he does it purely out of an interest in getting everybody's dander up, and it matters not what he's arguing, just as long as he's arguing.
He bickers for bickering's sake, and not out of an interest in what is best for the reefs, and the collectors and the others in the trade, even though he's in the trade himself. Either that or he's simply out to salve his own conscience... either way it doesn't matter - if more effort were placed in tangible action to solve the problems in the industry, and less energy wasted on Kalk, we might move forward
I suppose there is some value in the reader wading through his rhetoric, to see the responses from the rest, but we've been going in the same circles for a couple of years or more now.
Jenn
Actually my comments were more directed toward my more learned colleagues, who continue to argue Kalk's ummm "interesting" notions. It is my supposition that he does it purely out of an interest in getting everybody's dander up, and it matters not what he's arguing, just as long as he's arguing.
He bickers for bickering's sake, and not out of an interest in what is best for the reefs, and the collectors and the others in the trade, even though he's in the trade himself. Either that or he's simply out to salve his own conscience... either way it doesn't matter - if more effort were placed in tangible action to solve the problems in the industry, and less energy wasted on Kalk, we might move forward
I suppose there is some value in the reader wading through his rhetoric, to see the responses from the rest, but we've been going in the same circles for a couple of years or more now.
Jenn
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Hey,
I'm bored too! Bored with trying to do the right thing. Bored with the endless focus on importing only source verified, netcaught bonafide fish that don't poison the ecosystem. Its a rather unpopular thing to do, but since the "institutional so-called reformers" are proving to be dysfunctional in S.E.Asia, somebodys gotta do it.
Then again its perhaps my fault for thinking they might help. There are more netcaught fish around coming from the Philippines and even Bali then people think. The point is to bring them in and never bring in cyanide fish to mix with them. Importers universally refuse to forgo their cheaper cyanide fish supplies but three of them bring in the token trickle of MAC certified clowns and chelmons to go with the 'regular variety.' ...Like little sprinkles on a cupcake.
There will be a growing supply of netcaught fishes available this year but it is thanks to private initiatives and local governments supporting it.
Its just shop talk and may become boring to outside viewers....but if your livlihood depends upon it, you do not have the luxury to become bored ith it.
Steve @ Cortez Marine
I'm bored too! Bored with trying to do the right thing. Bored with the endless focus on importing only source verified, netcaught bonafide fish that don't poison the ecosystem. Its a rather unpopular thing to do, but since the "institutional so-called reformers" are proving to be dysfunctional in S.E.Asia, somebodys gotta do it.
Then again its perhaps my fault for thinking they might help. There are more netcaught fish around coming from the Philippines and even Bali then people think. The point is to bring them in and never bring in cyanide fish to mix with them. Importers universally refuse to forgo their cheaper cyanide fish supplies but three of them bring in the token trickle of MAC certified clowns and chelmons to go with the 'regular variety.' ...Like little sprinkles on a cupcake.
There will be a growing supply of netcaught fishes available this year but it is thanks to private initiatives and local governments supporting it.
Its just shop talk and may become boring to outside viewers....but if your livlihood depends upon it, you do not have the luxury to become bored ith it.
Steve @ Cortez Marine
Well. It this an initiation to the club. A test maybe?
Trying to get me to defend myself of get me to
preach also. I want to do my part and am trying too! But which do I join to make a difference.
You are right. My livlihood does not depent on it.
But I am passionate about my hobby.
Trying to get me to defend myself of get me to
preach also. I want to do my part and am trying too! But which do I join to make a difference.
You are right. My livlihood does not depent on it.
But I am passionate about my hobby.
You can help by demanding ethically and sustainably caught or propagated specimens from your suppliers.
Just like Mary's sig line says, "An Educated Hobbyist" demands it!
Until attitudes change all across the chain of custody, neither MAC, nor Mary, nor Steve, nor I nor anybody else is going to make any more than a small dent in the problem.
We're doing our part... by practincing what we preach, and educating anyone who is interested, in the truth about the hobby. Folks like Steve are on the front lines, folks like Mary work inside the chain of custody, and folks like me are working to make the public aware, while attempting to only stock net-caught or propped specimens.
Become a part of the solution.
Jenn
Just like Mary's sig line says, "An Educated Hobbyist" demands it!
Until attitudes change all across the chain of custody, neither MAC, nor Mary, nor Steve, nor I nor anybody else is going to make any more than a small dent in the problem.
We're doing our part... by practincing what we preach, and educating anyone who is interested, in the truth about the hobby. Folks like Steve are on the front lines, folks like Mary work inside the chain of custody, and folks like me are working to make the public aware, while attempting to only stock net-caught or propped specimens.
Become a part of the solution.
Jenn
How do you know I havent. I am also on the frontline, currently doing my best to advise new
hobbiest. I also order and stock fish/corals. Very
picky about vendors. Looking for healty net caught
CB and TR raised fish. As far as corals we no longer
have to order from the ocean. We have enough
trades and swaps. I am very pro propagation.
Simply trying to understand what organization is
doing what, when, where and how.
hobbiest. I also order and stock fish/corals. Very
picky about vendors. Looking for healty net caught
CB and TR raised fish. As far as corals we no longer
have to order from the ocean. We have enough
trades and swaps. I am very pro propagation.
Simply trying to understand what organization is
doing what, when, where and how.
I didn't say you hadn't... you asked how you could make a difference, I offered suggestions.
As a retailer, I've had to find out the hard way, that not all suppliers are either informed or honest (I'd like to give some the benefit of the doubt, but...)
Ask ANY wholesaler in LA (or any place else) - ALL of them will swear on a stack of Bibles that all they buy are net caught fish. No cyanide caught fish in any of them. Somebody's not being truthful... where would all those cyanide caught fish go? They don't vanish in the chain of custody.
So somebody is either being fooled, or fooling at the wholesale level.
Have never EVER heard any wholesaler say, "Yeah, we get some cyande caught fish". NEVER.
So through trial and error, I've found out where the quality is. Some only get a few orders a year from me, others get orders just about every week from me. I go where the quality is.
I can no more guarantee a clean fish any more than a MAC dealer can -- however I can see the difference in the overall health and long-term survivability of my fish. I didn't spend big bucks for a "certification" that isn't really worth more than finding a decent supplier.
Captive raised specimens have their place, but if all trade in marines had to be from captive stock, what would happen to the collectors? They've got to earn a living... taking away their livelihood isn't the answer either.
Now if the focus on the local villages turns to sustainable collection practices, "no take" zones to allow animals to propagate naturally, or even managed areas where mariculture could take place on a local level, are viable means too. The solution is NOT just to turn the whole process into stateside laboratory facilities where fish are "manufactured". This would remove any incentive to protect wild ornamentals... if there is no reason to sustain wild populations of wild ornamentals, who knows what other destruction might come to the reefs? Economic tide turns, fisher folk who collected ornamentals may have to turn to other means of harvesting the reefs to survive.
It's a really really complex issue.
Jenn
As a retailer, I've had to find out the hard way, that not all suppliers are either informed or honest (I'd like to give some the benefit of the doubt, but...)
Ask ANY wholesaler in LA (or any place else) - ALL of them will swear on a stack of Bibles that all they buy are net caught fish. No cyanide caught fish in any of them. Somebody's not being truthful... where would all those cyanide caught fish go? They don't vanish in the chain of custody.
So somebody is either being fooled, or fooling at the wholesale level.
Have never EVER heard any wholesaler say, "Yeah, we get some cyande caught fish". NEVER.
So through trial and error, I've found out where the quality is. Some only get a few orders a year from me, others get orders just about every week from me. I go where the quality is.
I can no more guarantee a clean fish any more than a MAC dealer can -- however I can see the difference in the overall health and long-term survivability of my fish. I didn't spend big bucks for a "certification" that isn't really worth more than finding a decent supplier.
Captive raised specimens have their place, but if all trade in marines had to be from captive stock, what would happen to the collectors? They've got to earn a living... taking away their livelihood isn't the answer either.
Now if the focus on the local villages turns to sustainable collection practices, "no take" zones to allow animals to propagate naturally, or even managed areas where mariculture could take place on a local level, are viable means too. The solution is NOT just to turn the whole process into stateside laboratory facilities where fish are "manufactured". This would remove any incentive to protect wild ornamentals... if there is no reason to sustain wild populations of wild ornamentals, who knows what other destruction might come to the reefs? Economic tide turns, fisher folk who collected ornamentals may have to turn to other means of harvesting the reefs to survive.
It's a really really complex issue.
Jenn
First
Kalkbreath! May I call you "Kalk"? (You can call me "Van"!)
As a lil aside I have to say that I used to do that. Be up at 3:30; work-out; shower; have breakfast; commute to my job; and be fit as a fiddle to face another day's worth of challenges...
Some of my best and clearest thoughts came at about 4am in the shower...
So you have outdone yourself here at 3:45am, wink, juice and all! This has been the clearest post from you we have seen in a while,
Now let's see what we can do to help you out. I will address point by point, and in so doing try to keep this clear.
a) Even though it ends with a "?" this is an illuminating statement. And I must apologize for possibly causing your uncertainty ( as per your "I am not sure" ).
I should have left my "Red Herring" out of my post. Then you would likely have seen that my question to you was:
"So what is it then - YOUR "truth" - ? :"
That was and is THE question. Now we see that in fact you sorta answered it in c).
b) Discussing this ( your digressing question ) would not serve a purpose here. To re-iterate, we were discussing YOUR version of the truth. See above.
c) And I believe we have made some progress. For we read
Kalkbreath, I think WE ALL can agree on that one. Now of course the question arises "quo vadis?" And that includes, whereto with you!
For immediately on the heels of your affirmative "truth" statement, you throw in some stuff that is open to challenges.
Especially as you do not cite sources nor provide any supporting data. More on that later.
But for now however, let's go with the fact
In fairness, I pro-actively promise that once we see a CLEAR answer from you, that I am fully prepared to -in return- share my thoughts on this matter - assuming anyone is interested - :wink:
ThenAd van Tage":1jzd5lew said:
Kalkbreath replied and":1jzd5lew said:
Kalkbreath! May I call you "Kalk"? (You can call me "Van"!)
As a lil aside I have to say that I used to do that. Be up at 3:30; work-out; shower; have breakfast; commute to my job; and be fit as a fiddle to face another day's worth of challenges...
Some of my best and clearest thoughts came at about 4am in the shower...
So you have outdone yourself here at 3:45am, wink, juice and all! This has been the clearest post from you we have seen in a while,
as you actually answered and":1jzd5lew said:
Now let's see what we can do to help you out. I will address point by point, and in so doing try to keep this clear.
a) Even though it ends with a "?" this is an illuminating statement. And I must apologize for possibly causing your uncertainty ( as per your "I am not sure" ).
I should have left my "Red Herring" out of my post. Then you would likely have seen that my question to you was:
"So what is it then - YOUR "truth" - ? :"
That was and is THE question. Now we see that in fact you sorta answered it in c).
b) Discussing this ( your digressing question ) would not serve a purpose here. To re-iterate, we were discussing YOUR version of the truth. See above.
c) And I believe we have made some progress. For we read
that you":1jzd5lew said:
Kalkbreath, I think WE ALL can agree on that one. Now of course the question arises "quo vadis?" And that includes, whereto with you!
For immediately on the heels of your affirmative "truth" statement, you throw in some stuff that is open to challenges.
Especially as you do not cite sources nor provide any supporting data. More on that later.
But for now however, let's go with the fact
and ask what you think is "The right way"out here. What solutions would you offer. To make it easier for you to do that, I will start a new DEDICATED thread for you.that you":1jzd5lew said:
In fairness, I pro-actively promise that once we see a CLEAR answer from you, that I am fully prepared to -in return- share my thoughts on this matter - assuming anyone is interested - :wink:
How many more fish are collected with cyanide ? And how much greater is the concentrations associated with food fishing ? Even if the percentage is the same 30% to 30 percent.............there are fifty times more food fish .........PeterIMA":1xdn0ru9 said:
One of the issues I bring out on this board.........is that Tank raise fish and captive bred corals ........actually can bring about more harm then buying wild collected stock.............The nativesthat own and take care of the reefs must earn a living of some kind...........if they are not farming their reefs .........they are plowing the land to grow crops { creating runoff and silt that smother the reefs} Or they blast fish and crow bar the reefs to collect seafood.........Both of which are far more distructive...then collecting fragments of live coral or collecting damslefish ...to sell so they can buy food that is grown elsewhere.......ONly buying captive grown animals .......is kind like abandoning the reef........The reefs need our support.gracie":x2hbdvou said:
My last response sums up the issue of what is the right way to go .........reguardless of how the reeformer like to pretend that the collection a few million tiny damsels and clownfish from 25,000 squarekilometers can affect the reefs of PI .........its not possible and the lie has been told so long that for some reason people want to hold on to the claim.........Funny how they have never even attempted to explain how many fish are removed by collection or from how large an area...........or .........how removing less then one damsel fish a day can cause any harm on the reefs .........There is a two year long discussion between Me and the wholesalers on this board. Without a cyanide problem.........these wholesalers have little to offer over the traditional larger wholesalers........Ad van Tage":351x2hsg said:
I read your post last and sea that many of the things I replied to Gracie you already pointed out ........I agree with everything in your reply.................BUT....... I stand behind every issue I have ever raise on this board .........{even eel rubbings }.......Did you really think that small white spot on the coral in the picture could not have been from a crown of thorns starfish , a parrot fish chomp or a boat anchor mark? :wink:JennM":emiht2t8 said:
Maybe Mkirta can post the photo again !Ill provide the Caption ahead of time........ This was what he found after three days of looking for cyanide damage........Wow ! There is a white area on one of the acros in my reef tank where my majestic angel has been picking at it ...........
Here you go, Jeff:
The entire article and more pictures can be found here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/m ... /index.htm
Would take a heck of an eel to rub that acro clean away... not just the edge of it, as you suggested but a whole big patch of it...
:roll:
Jenn
The entire article and more pictures can be found here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/m ... /index.htm
Would take a heck of an eel to rub that acro clean away... not just the edge of it, as you suggested but a whole big patch of it...
:roll:
Jenn
Now why didn't I think of that ... :lol: :lol: :lol:JennM":xiart41g said:
Here I wanted to respond with: "Kalkbreath your needle has been stuck in your own groove too long!!!" , I mean:
My last lies have been told so long and for some reason I just want to hold on to all my claims.........Funny how I have never even really attempted to explain how many fish are removed by cyanide collection or from how large an area...........or .........how removing reef fish by many a squirt each day does cause long term harm on the reefs .........
There is a two year long "discussion" between ME - the cyanide oracle- and the plain dealers on this board.
Without a cyanide problem.........I, Kalkhead, would not have a platform....
Ooops , gotta go refill my Scope-squirter...
I feel another Kalkitosis waft coming across!
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