Doesn't the Vertically Integrated System exist in the P.I.?

[Anonymous]

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45244&start=0

...The solution is simple.
Instead of trying to fix and reform "other peoples businesses", especially those that don't want to be reformed...you simply invest in and buy your own business and run it according to ethical policy...

Okay why is there a need to start a business? Doesn't said Vertically Integrated System (VIS) already exist?

We currently have:
1) Ferdinand Cruz (EASI): net trainer in the Phillipines;
2) Marivi Laurel (Aquarium Habitat): premiere net-caught-only exporter in Manila. Oh, and Imperial, correct?
3) Mary Middlebrook (MSI) and Steve Robinson (Cortez Marine): net-caught only importers.

Again, don't we already have a VIS in place?

Why the need for venture capital, Steve?

Sincerely,
Lee

 

[mkirda]

Okay why is there a need to start a business? Doesn't said Vertically Integrated System (VIS) already exist?

In a word, No.

Marivi does not employ divers. They are independent contractors, supplying fish to her among others. They are free to go to whichever exporter they choose.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

So Marivi's fish are not above reproach? How about Imperial's? Does Imperial employ its own divers?

 

[Anonymous]

Any chance of talking Marivi into hiring a few divers?

 

[mkirda]

So Marivi's fish are not above reproach? How about Imperial's? Does Imperial employ its own divers?

No ones fish are above reproach. Marivi however only works with divers that have been net-trained and are known to have continued to collect using nets.
Does that mean a cyanide-caught fish doesn't slip in now and again?
No.
But it does mean that they will be much rarer. I know that she will not accept any fish from fishermen not known to her.

I don't know the answer to the question about Imperial, but I expect that the answer is also No.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Any chance of talking Marivi into hiring a few divers?

Sure, just as soon as you find her some more customers so the expense becomes worth it. :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Lee,
I wish it were all so simple.
Answering for other people as too why they don't do this or that is cause for permanant frustration. If it were that easy, it would've been done.
Ferdie/EASI are NGO people. Not businesses.
Marivi and Guia, the other certified one are victims of the hype and doing poorly as the non training of divers to improve variety did'nt happen despite promises and assurances to them. I have chided them for believing in the ability of the NGO is question to deliver. Marivi banked on it and 'lost the bank' on it.
The non performance in field training sends would-be allies back to dealing in 'other' fish. This is the crux of the irritation w/ the NGO in question. They took the wholistic approach on paper and didn't even train poor divers in the water.
A small thing really. Big only in the fact of not doing it.
Mary and I are importers and not owners and bosses of another peoples export facilities.
Lastly, the minority that cares about this constitutes very little putting their money where their mouth type buying power. The consumer revolt of concern hobbyists came closest to ignition 20 years ago.
Since then they have been lulled to sleep like the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries has, thinking that the NGOs were taking care it things.
There is capital invested in the collection, holding and selling of fish every day...lots of it. So far however without the balance of field savy, business acumen and market support in keeping it clean all the way.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

I think a definition of "vertical integration" as it pertains to this industry is in order.

Walt Smith is vertically integrated in Fiji. He owns his own collecting station, employs his own divers, ships to his own import facility in Los Angeles. Walt is directly "integrated" from the collection to the importation. He "owns" it.

My guess would be that due to the huge collection areas involved in countries like the Philippines and Indonesia, that true vertical integration would be almost impossible. From my understanding, certain key fish only come from certain areas. The collectors in those areas sell their fish to any exporter that will buy them. They are independent, so to speak. In order to be vertically integrated in either of those countries, you would have to employ all of your own divers, own a collection station, and own an import facility. It's not "some divers, Marivi, and a couple of importers are like minded, therefore isn't that vertical integration?".

 

[clarionreef]

Right Mary,
In order to vertically integrate [ to borrow from the CCIFs * non-implementable [by them anyway]...wet dream ...] in the Philippines and/or Indonesia you'd have to own or command a number of field stations.
If not, you get tons of the same ol fish and burn out all your customers on netcaught yet...ho hum variety. I
f you have an outside salary and like to travel and play with fish, its OK, but if you live in the real world, you go under and die.
Long range boats emanating from fewer collecting sites were the way this was done before, but now you need increasingly to be friends with the places you visit to collect from.
So, the central export facility would have to have a few feeder stations to secure the critical variety...which frankly would cost less then opening a medium size fish store.
Imagining and pontificating on an in-house vertically integrated business web in S. E. Asia the solution is worth 25 cents. Being able to implement it with the capital, the right team and an intact code of ethics is the other 99.9999% of the challenge.
Steve
PS. The CCIF* as we covered here before was a consultant group hired by Packard investors to explore a mega size vertically integrated complex in Indo and the Philippines to take over the fish trade, put their power behind it and let the chips fall where they may.
They were beside themselves trying to figure out things that we fish folks take for granted and agonized over how to make MACs seal of approval work and verify them as the new superstars on the scene.
They tossed about a $8,000,000. cost as the set up figure.
When they found out that things were not as simple as they needed them to be, and when they relized that MAC didn't have it all nailed down as they were led to believe, they disappeared.

 

[dizzy]

PS. The CCIF* as we covered here before was a consultant group hired by Packard investors to explore a mega size vertically integrated complex in Indo and the Philippines to take over the fish trade, put their power behind it and let the chips fall where they may.
They were beside themselves trying to figure out things that we fish folks take for granted and agonized over how to make MACs seal of approval work and verify them as the new superstars on the scene.
They tossed about a $8,000,000. cost as the set up figure.
When they found out that things were not as simple as they needed them to be, and when they relized that MAC didn't have it all nailed down as they were led to believe, they disappeared.

And people wonder how these conspiracy theories get started. :wink: If anyone can untangle the CCIF/MAC accord they may get a sense of why some of us little guys feel the process does not have our best interests at heart.
Mitch

 

[MaryHM]

Dizzy,

True, true, true. I don't think it was ever on the AMDA message boards, but I had SERIOUS issues with CCIF. They blatantly lied to me to obtain extremely sensitive information about my business. I never trusted a thing they did after that. Good riddance.

Mary

 

[clarionreef]

Perhaps,
Perhaps these things sound like conspiracy theories to the chronically suspicious but I know what was revealed to me over dozens of hours of dialogue and several meetings. They're out here in San Francisco.
When getting free information out of us working class types, the corporate thinking consultants in question were more interested in grand marketing scenarios for their clients then environmental, field policy or village knowledge.
I kept thinking, the vast quantity of fish required to feed the insatiable juggernaut they envisioned would add a great deal more reef impact to an already dicey situation.
The more you know on this stuff, the worse it gets. You want more?
Steve

 

[bobimport]

Gee all these years I have been VI and didn't know it. A question though. To be truely VI would you not have to own petstores? Sort of like the oil companys?

 

[clarionreef]

Why yes Bob,
You are V.I. to Miami, no?
Do you have a sense of whats happening in Haiti vis a vis the aquarium trade?
Will it stop for awhile? Day to day?
What do you think?
Steve