Defenseless MAC?

[MaryHM]

WOW!! 8O I just saw this post from Steve in another thread and thought it was too good to possibly go unnoticed.

Defenseless MAC?
Ahhh the poor babies!
Comon people....anyone attempting the change public policy or affecting the livlihoods of others has to suck it up and deal with the public.
Fisheries managers the world over are often on the front lines defending their policies against angry mobs of fisherman. A little debate online is little to expect. However, if you can't participate for lack of talent, experience, familiarity with the issue and ability to mix it up....then you don't belong in this arena at all.
The list of so-called Loonies is a mile long and has become a whos ho of the trade. Its also virtually every exporter in the Philippines and Indonesia. To attempt to regulate an industry from afar without engaging in a public process smacks of hedgemony, cronyism and backroom dealings.
Say it ain't so MAC. If you can't speak clearly then at least send another service guy to enunciate for you.
Steve

 

[JennM]

Good points.

One would think that with all the funding allocated to the MAC, and with the absense of field workers to pay, they could at least afford a professional spin doctor?

I suppose the story goes that we aren't "worthy" of wasting time and bandwidth on...

Oh well

Carry on, folks!

Jenn

 

[mkirda]

This is an example of making things personal when there is no need.
I know the reasons why John no longer posts. I have urged him to reconsider - to come back and restart the dialog that leads to constructive criticism and constructive suggestions.

Based on this exchange, I expect that there is no hope of it happening.
Which is truly this forum's loss.

At what cost is a laugh worth?

Sorry, John. I know that doesn't make it up to you.

 

[Anonymous]

But.. he's posting on RDO. :? Color me confused.

 

[investigator1]

Mkirda I have to strongly disagree with you about your statement and I hope he did not face disciplinary action from this forum. "Steve" has made a very constructive and valid point. Without business leaders that can communicate thier business it will fail.

 

[jamesw]

As I've said in other threads, what good could it possible serve for John to keep posting here as a MAC representative? Or for that matter, ANYONE from MAC?

Do you need a real live person as a punching bag? Is it no fun if the punching bag doesn't hit back?

As we found out from John's short tenure here, it is of absolutely NO value for a MAC spokesperson to post here as anything they say is just shouted down by the bellowing herd.

MAC has LOTS of public outreach and education programs in place. I think their decision to bypass this forum after what they learned from the DEBACLE while John was moderator was a good idea. I think anything they could or would post here would be a waste of their time as the forum members have already decided that whatever they say is already wrong.

That's my opinion at least. It doesn't reflect any reefs.org policy or anything...

Cheers
James

 

[Anonymous]

Last night I read a very informative and well spoken post by blue hula. She made valid statements, and it seems that she speaks from a position of knowledge. To call what occurs here a debacle, is, in my opinion, a diminishment of the very necessary process of questions and answers.

It is my opinion that people such as blue hula, who have shown they know what it's like to put their money where their mouth is, should be paid much closer attention to by all sides.

Of course, that's just my opinion, too.

 

[jamesw]

Hi Marina,

That word was used in past tense. Blue Hula wasn't a participating member at the time, she started posting afterwards.

I think her viewpoint and knowledge have brought the forum forward a LOT and I'd like to say thanks.

Cheers
James

 

[blue hula]

Hi Marina,

That word was used in past tense. Blue Hula wasn't a participating member at the time, she started posting afterwards.

I think her viewpoint and knowledge have brought the forum forward a LOT and I'd like to say thanks.

Cheers
James

Thank you Seamaiden ...

Also, thank you James ... but if I wasn't part of the "debacle" and given I kept my initial questions polite, professional, and supported with info ... how come I don't warrant the courtesy of a response from MAC ?

Cheers,
Blue hula

 

[jamesw]

(sincerely) Blue Hula: You do merit a response.

(in jest) In fact, I just called MAC and found out that since their staff is stretched incredibly thin they got a grant for $200,000 and just hired a staff of 6 to answer emails and post messages on this bulletin board.

That second paragraph is made in jest - all but the part about their staff being stretched incredibly thin.

Cheers
James

 

[blue hula]

James- thanks again

My point is that this isn't about MAC being stretched incredibly thin ... all NGOs are ... most resource managers are ...

If it was simply a question of being stretched thin, I would eventually get an answer (3 months for a simple yes/no is pretty damning but possible)

MAC doesn't respond because they don't have convincing answers ... which should raise MAJOR concerns about their competency to reform the trade... silence drains the questioners and, in the absence of questions, the rest of us relax and assume the job is getting done.

You don't think being busy (or scared) is a bit lame?

Pity the reefs
Blue hula

 

[JennM]

Blue Hula was late into the game, but (respectfully) she is simply a more qualified person than the rest of us, asking the same, or more complex questions.

While her questions deserve to be answered, I submit that those of us who have been around longer, have questions with just as much merit. Just because she missed all the fun when John was moderator does not make her any more entitled to answers.

Any of us who are involved in ANY aspect of the industry, either as dealers or consumers, should be worthy of having legitimate questions answered.

Just because somebody on the MAC board doesn't like the person asking, does not invalidate the questions.

It's time to put the personality B. S. behind, and start dealing with the real issues.

I'm glad that Blue Hula is here asking questions, that stem from her knowledge of the geography, the infrastructure, and the SCIENCE behind the areas where fish are collected. I hope that since MAC doesn't want to answer my questions, they will deem her worthy of a reply.

Jenn

 

[jamesw]

What if the question is one that is specifically designed so that it cannot be answered?

Like this one:

"So, MAC, have you stopped beating your wife?"

Respectfully submitted (this is not a joke)

James

 

[blue hula]

Jenn -

I hope nothing I have ever said suggests I think I deserve answers more than anyone else based on my being a science geek ... my qualifications are simply different ...

Questions should be answered regardless of who asks them when an organisation is working at the public interface.

Sincerely,
Jessica

 

[JennM]

No Jessica, not at all.... not from where I stand.
But since MAC *appears* to have taken the stance that some of us here are just a bunch of "looney radicals" not worthy of a response, it is my hope that from *their* point of view, you are above us, the "great unwashed", and perhaps more worthy in their eyes, of some response.

We all deserve to get answers to even the most elementary of questions. Since all of us loonies are in the trade, this affects our very livelihood.

Jenn

 

[blue hula]

What if the question is one that is specifically designed so that it cannot be answered?

Like this one:

"So, MAC, have you stopped beating your wife?"

Respectfully submitted (this is not a joke)

James

The answer is only difficult in a "yes/no" world.
Simple enough to answer with:

"I never have beaten my wife, I do not beat my wife now and I have no intention of beating her in the future"

For good measure, one could add to the answer:

"I also will not allow anyone else to beat my wife nor does my wife beat me or other known entities"

What's hard about that?

My question surely can not be seen as difficult or ambiguous:

Mr. MAC - have resource assessments been conducted on the Batasan CAMP?

If "yes" - what method was used?
If "no" - how then do you know that the fishing is sustainable ?

Cheers,
Blue hula

 

[Anonymous]

(sincerely) Blue Hula: You do merit a response.

(in jest) In fact, I just called MAC and found out that since their staff is stretched incredibly thin they got a grant for $200,000 and just hired a staff of 6 to answer emails and post messages on this bulletin board.

That second paragraph is made in jest - all but the part about their staff being stretched incredibly thin.

Cheers
James

oh please, james, stop being such a blanket apologist for mac, or we'll have to change your last name to brandt

iirc, mac placed their own email link on their site, no? (as has been pointed out many a time before)

how can you rationalize away mac's not even responding to blue hula w/such a trivializing response?

What if the question is one that is specifically designed so that it cannot be answered?

Like this one:

"So, MAC, have you stopped beating your wife?"

Respectfully submitted (this is not a joke)

sincerely) Blue Hula: You do merit a response.

(in jest) In fact, I just called MAC and found out that since their staff is stretched incredibly thin they got a grant for $200,000 and just hired a staff of 6 to answer emails and post messages on this bulletin board.

That second paragraph is made in jest - all but the part about their staff being stretched incredibly thin.

now i'm confused-either she does merit a response, or she doesn't

unless you want to defend the action of posting an email link who's sole function is to 'screen callers', rather than address public concerns about the activities/policies of a publicly funded ngo?

 

[Anonymous]

Jenn -

I hope nothing I have ever said suggests I think I deserve answers more than anyone else based on my being a science geek ... my qualifications are simply different ...

Questions should be answered regardless of who asks them when an organisation is working at the public interface.

Sincerely,
Jessica

As someone who has, at this point, little to no impact on the science, trade, or hobby aspect of this issue (other than writings), I happen to feel that your perspective is highly unique when compared to that of "the usual suspects". You mentioned that you have been among those actually working to make change happen. This means to me that you yourself have actually been in John's shoes (though in a manner, apparently, that goes far beyond what we see here). This is part and parcel of why I feel that your input is, assuming no deception has occurred, so valuable. It would seem you have walked the walk, which gives you a rightful place to talk the talk.
This is not to say that I disagree with your opinion regarding whether or not certain people can or should be asking questions, nor do I feel they should have to give up their identities if they risk repercussion by being forced to do so (or otherwise risk dismissal).

Marina

 

[Anonymous]

i'd suggest to all here (just for some extra background) to read the transcript of paul holthus's #reefs talk

pay speciall attention to all of the legitimate questions asked there,and take a look at all the questions posted in the #reefs forum(done as a courtesy to those who couldn't get 'em answered during the talk, etc)


pay special attention to paul's responses :wink:

 

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