The shell game ....

[blue hula]

Kalk,

It is for posts such as these that I adore you ... thank you for your irreverancy. Sorry for starting a new post with an old quote but this was too good to leave sitting in a thread that, as Rover suggested, has served its purpose.

Perhaps .....but lets pretend I am the representative for a moment..........Lets say that every thing you all on this board have pointed out is true: Many of the areas now certified are less then up to par.........In fact there are no areas in all of PI which can be certified as sustainable within the guide lines set forth ........Sorry, but we over estimated how difficult and degraded the reefs are ..{keep in mind that this admission also points to the fact that every fish collected from PI is unsustainable! so any other group of collectors/Exporters claiming sustainable fish collection .....is being less then honest..... .....Furthermore the rampant use of cyanide by the food fish industry has made it impossible to extract 100 percent untainted fish from the same waters seafood industry persons collect. There for we have decided to withdraw from the Philippines and begin work in a more unsullied environment. The islands of Fiji promise to fulfill all our dreams in the way of reef friendly collection and hobby exculpation to boot!...........We hope all those whom supported us in the past , will continue to in our new activities in Fiji!

I can imagine a couple of responses:

(1) Well, if Fiji has none of the problems associated with the trade, why do we need to slap a certification label on them? Doesn't the country of origin speak for itself? Dear Mr. MAQ, what do you reckon your organisation can value-add to Fijian fish ?

or

(2) Dear Mr. MAQ,
We thank you for your forthright assessment of your position in the Philippines. We understand that you will thus be closing down your office and no longer in need of the funding provided by our organisation. Furthermore, we find ourselves unable to provide the funding you have requested for your work in Fiji given your poor track record in the Philippnes.

or

(3) Dear Mr. MAQ,
Please do not be hasty. We view certification as a process rather than a gold standard. We believe it essential to convince the many doubting thomases out there that indeed, sustainability in the aquarium trade can be achieved, regardless of whether we have evidence to this end or not. Certify your fish sustainable and we will believe. Carry on with a full heart and in the understanding that we have increased our funding allocation to your initiative. Indeed, we hope that you will be able to use some of this additional funding to further develop relationships with like minded entities.

or

(4) Mr. MAQ - keep shifting that pebble under those 3 shells. You'll look strategic and effective and we won't be able to keep up.

 

[clarionreef]

Dear Xena...I mean Blue Hula,
You are not supposed to be able to zero in on this stuff so quickly.
The inability to respond to you requires silence on the part of the ones once tentative with you, then avoiding you...and now running from you.
Thank goodness for independant, non economically determined science. Without it, more might be lulled to sleep by the need to believe that 'all is quiet' on the Western Pacific front.
Thanks for sharing with us.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

And last night, right after reading his post, I was thinking to myself...

Fijian fish need MAC certification like the Swiss need Trident submarines.

But then having promised myself not to get into it with him, I passed.

You nailed this one, Jessica.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Ad van Tage]

Kalk,

It is for posts such as these that I adore you ... thank you for your irreverancy. Sorry for starting a new post with an old quote but this was too good to leave sitting in a thread that, as Rover suggested, has served its purpose.

Perhaps .....but lets pretend I am the representative for a moment..........Lets say that every thing you all on this board have pointed out is true: Many of the areas now certified are less then up to par.........In fact there are no areas in all of PI which can be certified as sustainable within the guide lines set forth ........Sorry, but we over estimated how difficult and degraded the reefs are ..{keep in mind that this admission also points to the fact that every fish collected from PI is unsustainable! so any other group of collectors/Exporters claiming sustainable fish collection .....is being less then honest..... .....Furthermore the rampant use of cyanide by the food fish industry has made it impossible to extract 100 percent untainted fish from the same waters seafood industry persons collect. There for we have decided to withdraw from the Philippines and begin work in a more unsullied environment. The islands of Fiji promise to fulfill all our dreams in the way of reef friendly collection and hobby exculpation to boot!...........We hope all those whom supported us in the past , will continue to in our new activities in Fiji!

I can imagine a couple of responses:

(1) Dear Mr. MAQ,
or

(2) Dear Mr. MAQ,
or

(3) Dear Mr. MAQ,
or

(4) Mr. MAQ - keep shifting that pebble under those 3 shells. You'll look strategic and effective and we won't be able to keep up.

Whereas I have absolutely no problem with the shellgame analogy... would it be possible to write:
1) Dear Mr/Ms MAQ ???
or
2) Dear Ms/Mr MAQ ???
or
3) Dear Mr&Ms MAQ
4) Dear Ms&Mr MAQ
or perhaps just
5) Dear MAQies..

I so hate to see gender bias!!!

:idea: My personal choice would have to be: Dear MACiavellians***


_________________
~ Ad aka Ecoworrier ~


*** Not to be confused with Machiavellian:
"Suggestive of or marked by the principles of expediency, deceit and cunning imputed to Machiavelli"

 

[Anonymous]

Fijian fish need MAC certification like the Swiss need Trident submarines.

Please humor an ignorant hobbyist trying to grasp the situation..

Does this mean that (at least the majority of) Fijian fish are thought of as cyanide free?

 

[clarionreef]

Yes sir,
Fiji fish are all cyanide free.
Always have been and not in need of collecting reform.
Fiji does not need MAC. MAC however needs Fiji to make itself look busy and productive. Especially after so long in the Philippines with so little fish supply to show and support dealers with.
The soon to be affixed certified label on Fiji fish will instantly provide a flow of ...er 'MAC fish', taking the heat off them before a largely unsuspecting public.
This choice of tactics, however earns them little credibility among those who actually want attention where the reef crisis is...in the Philippines and Indonesia.
While Fiji will buy some time and divert attention away from the Philippine debacle...it will serve only the interests of a desperate organization in need of some kind of results, [ even pre-existing results] not the trade and certainly not the reefs.
Certifed Philippine dealers will no doubt be interested as Fiji gets so much attention that they did not.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Why is it then that folks like Mary aren't able to come out and say that they know for certain all their fish are cyanide free? Aren't there exporters that are solely Fiji-based?

Sounds to me like MAC (or any other org that provides a "chain of custody" / paper-trail / certification process) does have a function still and at the same time (as you pointed out) is now able to take a different tack in forcing troubled Indo/PI areas to conform.

Personally, I could care less if a store has a sticker of any sort on their window. I suppose if* I trusted an owner enough to take his/her word that they only carry Fiji fish, that'd be good enough for me. But, in a growing world of e-tailers, there's no other mechanism for earning that trust besides certification is there? :?

* That's a big if...

 

[MaryHM]

I can't say "all" of my fish are cyanide free because I don't import solely from cyanide free countries such as Fiji, Tonga, Solomons, etc.. We do import some fish from there, and we provide the exact country of origin for EVERY species we carry (fish, corals, inverts, everything). I also import fish from the Philippines, and anytime I'm importing from a cyanide using country I can no longer say that ALL of my fish are cyanide free- even when I'm buying from net caught only stations because frankly you can never be 100% sure that something didn't slip in. There is a mechanism of trust in etail- my company. Not to toot a horn, but I am the only etailer (and I think the only wholesaler as well) that provides the country of origin for every species. It's all in the code . First letter of our item codes indicates the type of animal (F-fish H-hard coral S-soft coral, etc...). Second letter is the country of origin (F- Fiji, P- Philippines, J- Indonesia (Jakarta) T- Tonga S- Solomons, etc...). This is a very simple way for companies to incorporate country of origin in an easy to do manner for every species they carry. But alas, if other companies did that then we might know that they import from the dreaded Philippines and Indonesia!!! :lol:

 

[dizzy]

Personally, I could care less if a store has a sticker of any sort on their window. I suppose if* I trusted an owner enough to take his/her word that they only carry Fiji fish, that'd be good enough for me. But, in a growing world of e-tailers, there's no other mechanism for earning that trust besides certification is there? :?

* That's a big if...

Norm,
Old buddy you just may have hit on something. Perhaps it is the etailers that need certification and not the retailers. The public and anyone else is free to go into the retailer and inspect the livestock they are offering for sale. By asking questions an intelligent hobbyist can determine if the store owner is being honest about the source of his fish. Who inspects the livestock the etailer is offering to the public? In most cases no one I believe. I must admit that I am somewhat amazed that an excellent bb like rdo will accept banner advertising from companies that no one can go to and report back on. Money talks my friend. This certification of etail might also serve to level the playing field a bit. If etailers had to pay for certification costs as well as the increased price of the certified fish, it would be harder for them to start the lowball pricing wars, that tend to devalue the need to care for the fish properly.

 

[clarionreef]

Grate, all,
The variety from the South Pacific is not the same as S.E.Asia. Fiji supplies what it does to the trade, Sri Lanka also, and then so does Brazil and then Hawaii etc.
Fiji's variety alone would make you a 'partial wholesaler' at best and you'd best have another job that subsidizes your predictable failure in the business for having such a limited variety.
Since it is not possible to get enough variety to stand up against the other wholesalers that do not self-handicap themselves...S.E.Asian supplies are the crux of the debate...still.
Besides...its not so much the country that determines if the fish are 'bad', its the practices, the handling and the processing that does.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I can't say "all" of my fish are cyanide free because I don't import solely from cyanide free countries such as Fiji, Tonga, Solomons, etc..

And therein lies the crux of why despite my unsureness, I still maintain a high level of respect for your methods. To be honest (and maybe this is a good clue-in for those of you without decent web-fronts) yours is the only e-tail operation where I've actually had my fingers hovering over the "checkout" button for livestock.. I've looked at Marine Depot and considered it, but after reading some recent stuff, no, probably never.. (This is all recent too because my LFS is in a state of flux at the moment..)

Perhaps it is the etailers that need certification and not the retailers.

Well, I'll tell ya what.. - With the exception above (and somewhat verifiable ORA items), that's probably the only way I'll order anything but cleanup crews / macros from an e-tailer. (So far <knock on wood> I haven't had to resort to that.)

Fiji's variety alone would make you a 'partial wholesaler' at best and you'd best have another job that subsidizes your predictable failure in the business for having such a limited variety.

Ehhh... Who's to say an operation couldn't be successful in specializing though? - I mean really... - Since I already mentioned them, look at ORA for example... Or Ocean Rider, Inc, they're doing well aren't they? And again what I mentioned earlier in the post plays to this reply.. - Mary's shop has been the closest to getting my business and in my view she's trying to specialize.

Besides...its not so much the country that determines if the fish are 'bad', its the practices, the handling and the processing that does.

I guess I was framing my question more in line with the current theme really, cyanide.. From my time in the military I understand very well that 'country' doesn't make for good or bad.. :wink:

 

[MaryHM]

Ehhh... Who's to say an operation couldn't be successful in specializing though?

From someone who specialized in Fiji for over 3 years, I can say unequivocally that it is very difficult to be successful specializing that way. ORA & Ocean Rider specialize in captive bred species- something that not a whole lot of people are doing. In fact, I only know of 2 other captive bred only fish suppliers and Ocean Rider is the only one I know of that specializes in seahorses. The problem with trying to specialize in Fiji or Tonga or xyz handcaught country is that EVERY WHOLESALER CAN GET IT TOO. So you're competing with companies that have a much larger variety than you do from other countries + they carry everything you have as well. It's extremely difficult to compete like that. If a customer can get a Fiji Coral Beauty from Wholesaler 104 and get everything else he needs for his store as well, why would he want to make another trip to the airport and pay an extra freight bill to buy a Fiji Coral Beauty from Specialized Wholesaler, Inc? Answer, he wouldn't. I got away with it for a while because I ran my business by myself. My husband had a second job working construction and then delivered our animals to the airport. It was killing both him and me. We had to either get out of it or go whole hog. We went whole hog.

And Grateful, do me a favor...click that button.

 

[Anonymous]

Ahhh.. "Been there, done that." - Gotcha.. - Yeah, I obviously didn't consider that others have access in that situation whereas my examples (ORA, Ocean Rider) don't have much (or anything) in the way of competition.

And once I get my equipment straightened back around I'll probably do that.. :wink: