should the dry goods industry be more closely regulated?

[Anonymous]

from certain 'vital' products, to magnets on pvc pipe, this hobby's industry is rampant w/all sorts of bogus/kaka products, free marketing of antibiotics/carcinogens, etc.


should there be more strict regulation on the dry goods manufacturers of this industry, if not for the protection of the (sometimes) unwitting consumer, then at least for the protection of the animals these products help to kill?

 

[dgasmd]

I know that people that don't know much just starting can be easily talked into buying things they don't need or things that don't work by people in LFS that just want to make a sale. This is only to tell them they did it wrong and need something else to fix it when they come back and say it did not work. However, I think that customers should be smarter than that. One should be critical of what we spend our money on and demand proof. Use common sense, the last and lost tool to human kind these days.
I don't really know more regulations and watch dogs are really the answer as it is education. You can't prohibit or regulate what is said about a product, except for medication in advertisement. You can only demand proof of the advertisement pitch. Just a man's opinion.

 

[tazdevil]

I know that the FDA has been looking into the antibiotic portion, not sure where they're at with it though. Especially with the new breed of resistant infections out there, we're running out of stuff to throw at them that still work. They want a requirement that says any antibiotic for fish must be prescribed by a vet. They've also been arguing this for years without any change one way or the other.

Yes, vitz, there are way too many "snake oils" as well in this hobby, but look at how much trouble they have stopping "snake oils" claiming medicinal purposes for humans. Then we would also have to question how much regulation is too much. Best way to get rid of these snake oils is to not buy them and only buy things or recommend things that have been proven to work, without blasting the snake oil so you can't be sued for slander etc.

 

[naesco]

Vitz IMO this hobby needs strict government regulation and this extends into livestock is well.
It is wrong to sell snake oil. It is just as wrong to sell fish as cyanide free when the vendor knows that is not the case.

 

[JennM]

Wayne, the answer to everything in life is NOT Government regulation/intervention. Such a "Canadian" way to think :roll: Before I moved I thought much the same way... but on this side of the border, folks want as LITTLE government interferance as possible. Perhaps that's the biggest cultural difference I've noticed, but I digress....

Plenty of those so-called snake oil products do no harm - even if they are not really necessary, if people want to buy them, that's their perrogative. The antibiotic issue is a more serious one, and perhaps it's FDA (or whatever nation's governmental equivalent) territory, but other than rare strains of Vibrio sp, and/or Mycobacteriosis (sp?) there are very few diseases that can spread from fishes to humans or other animals, so the biggest issue is not being able to control infection with over-the-counter meds, and on that occasion a veterinarian can and should be consulted for prescriptions and supervision.

Just like with all the myriad of health and beauty products out there on the market (the origins of the term "snake oil"..), it really is buyer beware - consumers have the responsibility to research and buy appropriate items for their tank... or not buy them.

The LFS clerk is no more liable for a bad purchase, than the clerk at a cosmetic counter or a drugstore.

Last time I looked, no store clerk anywhere, forces a customer to part with his money unless he's willing.

Jenn

 

[naesco]

Wayne, the answer to everything in life is NOT Government regulation/intervention. Such a "Canadian" way to think :roll: Before I moved I thought much the same way... but on this side of the border, folks want as LITTLE government interferance as possible. Perhaps that's the biggest cultural difference I've noticed, but I digress....

Plenty of those so-called snake oil products do no harm - even if they are not really necessary, if people want to buy them, that's their perrogative. The antibiotic issue is a more serious one, and perhaps it's FDA (or whatever nation's governmental equivalent) territory, but other than rare strains of Vibrio sp, and/or Mycobacteriosis (sp?) there are very few diseases that can spread from fishes to humans or other animals, so the biggest issue is not being able to control infection with over-the-counter meds, and on that occasion a veterinarian can and should be consulted for prescriptions and supervision.

Just like with all the myriad of health and beauty products out there on the market (the origins of the term "snake oil"..), it really is buyer beware - consumers have the responsibility to research and buy appropriate items for their tank... or not buy them.

The LFS clerk is no more liable for a bad purchase, than the clerk at a cosmetic counter or a drugstore.

Last time I looked, no store clerk anywhere, forces a customer to part with his money unless he's willing.

Jenn

No government interference down there??
I don't think so.

 

[JennM]

You didn't read what I said, Wayne.

The difference in attitude between Canadians and Americans (as I see it, and in my personal opinion!)

Canadians want and expect the government to care for them from cradle to grave.

Americans want the government to stay out of their business, and let them get on with it.

I didn't say there was no government interference here, what I said was that Americans typically don't want the government controlling their affairs.

The answer to every issue is NOT government intervention. How many government officials could be considered experts in the marine aquarium industry? Probably as many as are working for MAC... :lol:

(oops did I say that?!)

Jenn

 

[naesco]

You didn't read what I said, Wayne.

The difference in attitude between Canadians and Americans (as I see it, and in my personal opinion!)

Canadians want and expect the government to care for them from cradle to grave.

Americans want the government to stay out of their business, and let them get on with it.

I didn't say there was no government interference here, what I said was that Americans typically don't want the government controlling their affairs.

The answer to every issue is NOT government intervention. How many government officials could be considered experts in the marine aquarium industry? Probably as many as are working for MAC... :lol:

(oops did I say that?!)

Jenn

And that is the problem.

But for a 'right of Attila the Hun' philosophy, you would have the government mandating a properly funded CDT test and stateside testing.
It would put all importers, wholesalers and LFS on a level playing ground.

Instead, we at RDO keep on going around and around and around on this issue and nothing happens.

The reefs continue their decline from the irreversible damage caused by cyanide.

How about doing the right thing, Jenn instead of the right wing thing, eh!

 

[JennM]

I don't recall ever stating I wanted a government run CDT. If you can cough up a quote from me on that, I'll stand corrected though.

I *have* said that if MAC is selling certifications, they should have a CDT in place, esp. for PI (and Indo) fishes.

MAC is not the government.

And I *am* doing the right thing, Wayne, with every dollar I spend. I don't feel I need a government run CDT, given the suppliers I currently use. Of course I don't feel like I need a fancy certification sticker either...

If more people within the industry (and not just those looking in) felt as I do, and acted as I do, there would little if any need for government intervention, the industry would repair itself, and cyanide would become redundant.

Jenn

 

[naesco]

I don't recall ever stating I wanted a government run CDT. If you can cough up a quote from me on that, I'll stand corrected though.

I *have* said that if MAC is selling certifications, they should have a CDT in place, esp. for PI (and Indo) fishes.

MAC is not the government.

And I *am* doing the right thing, Wayne, with every dollar I spend. I don't feel I need a government run CDT, given the suppliers I currently use. Of course I don't feel like I need a fancy certification sticker either...

If more people within the industry (and not just those looking in) felt as I do, and acted as I do, there would little if any need for government intervention, the industry
would repair itself, and cyanide would become redundant.

Jenn

The point is that it is not happening and will never happen until the government steps in and makes it happen.

 

[JennM]

That's a huge assumption on your part, Wayne. What makes you think that the (United States, or any) government finds this to be a concern? It could blow up in your face and result in a ban, couldn't it? (or is that your intention, based on previous "signature lines" you've used...)

I can only assume that your shortsightedness stems from your lack of experience/understanding in the industry. Walk a mile in my shoes, ... then we'll talk. :roll:

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne, the answer to everything in life is NOT Government regulation/intervention. Such a "Canadian" way to think :roll: Before I moved I thought much the same way... but on this side of the border, folks want as LITTLE government interferance as possible. Perhaps that's the biggest cultural difference I've noticed, but I digress....

Plenty of those so-called snake oil products do no harm - even if they are not really necessary, if people want to buy them, that's their perrogative. The antibiotic issue is a more serious one, and perhaps it's FDA (or whatever nation's governmental equivalent) territory, but other than rare strains of Vibrio sp, and/or Mycobacteriosis (sp?) there are very few diseases that can spread from fishes to humans or other animals, so the biggest issue is not being able to control infection with over-the-counter meds, and on that occasion a veterinarian can and should be consulted for prescriptions and supervision.

Just like with all the myriad of health and beauty products out there on the market (the origins of the term "snake oil"..), it really is buyer beware - consumers have the responsibility to research and buy appropriate items for their tank... or not buy them.

The LFS clerk is no more liable for a bad purchase, than the clerk at a cosmetic counter or a drugstore.

Last time I looked, no store clerk anywhere, forces a customer to part with his money unless he's willing.

Jenn

i'm not so sure about that, Jenn....

how many fish/inverts, both fw, and sw, have perished because some dutzy salesperson pushed some useless kaka on an unsuspecting noob?

how many tanks battled po4 issues due to a vital product breaking down in their tank?

there is really no truly 'benign' additive, imo- they all have some kind of impact on a system, and are, at their worst, a fraudulent product

we've all seen what just happened w/ephedra, right?

why shouldn't there be a group to help keep the 'ephedras' out of the sale of veterinary products?

veterinary use antibiotics, chloramphenicol, nitrofurazone, formalin...none of these chemicals agents belong in the hands of unqualified personnel
(and no, i don't consider an advanced hobbyist qualified to use thise things)

how do we know that antibiotics fluyshed down a toilet somewhere isn't going to cause some flu strain to react suoeraggressively?
(taht issue, at least, is now buzzing around medical circles, and some physicians have started a movement calling on other physicians to severely restrict the use of antibiotics, as a whole.

shouldn't there also be a way to take legal action against an aqualizerator, after a consumer finds out that the device, and the claims, are bogus?


why aren't msds sheets found in an lfs for malachite green, etc.?

i'll settle for a law requiring a detailed ingredients list on all additives/supplements.

i require it on my food, why shouldn't i require it on what i subject my animals to, when i introduce it to their environment?

just some thoughts :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

why aren't msds sheets found in an lfs for malachite green, etc.?

8O

I'm actually suprised OSHA isn't more involved in the trade all things considered..

Can you imagine a fully compliant shop though? - I mean really, think about all the critters and what you'd need for them. (Palys/zoos for example.....)

 

[JennM]

Well vitz, if the "useless boob" didn't use a product properly, or overdosed his tank, or didn't EDUCATE himself that's HIS fault.

Do you blame the car salesman because the person who bought the car, wrapped it around a telephone pole?

Your assessment of what is "snake oil" is your opinion and for every product you can declare is redundant, I can find a dozen hobbyists who swear by the stuff.

I'm not trying to defend the vital products you are referring to, but I'm just arguing the other side of the issue. Plenty of folks use those things without any problems, and many believe they are a benefit (even if they aren't, they are doing NO HARM).

I asked a manufacturer once for MSDS on his product once and never got a reply.

I tell people who buy zoos and venomous fishes of the dangers, BEFORE they buy.. more than many shops do.

When I worked in the grocery industry in Canada, we had to have MSDS sheets posted and available for all the products we USED in the store (cleansers, solvents etc), but we did not need to do the same for things we sold.

It boils down to (un)educated consumers.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Jenn wrote:

I asked a manufacturer once for MSDS on his product once and never got a reply.

Jenn:

Do you think it unreasonable to require 'full disclosure' on an ingredients list?

how can any customer make any type of educated decision, if they can't even tell what's in the product they're looking at.

as far as i know, all potentially hazardous materials MUST have an msds sheet available upon request

what about all of the carcinogens that are sold/marketed?

what about having poison center phone numbers on medication packages? malachite green could kill a small child, if ingested-shouldn't there at least be a proper warning on the labels?

are you saying that 'caveat emptor' is an excuse for not requiring any kind of regulation?

try carrying that logic over to other areas...

someone's kid swallows bleach-there is no ingredients label, and no poison control center phone # on the bottle.

i'm sure you see the value in lemon laws, as well :wink:

is 'well the customer should have educated themself about the dangers of bleach' an excuse for manufacturers not taking the responsibility to have the information available to make the purchaser aware of the potential danger?

would you be willing to have 'lemon laws' repealed?

do you think that medicines, and antibiotics, should be freely dispensed by people who have neither a medical, or veterinary, education/license?

does the fact that these products are marketed for animals, rather than people, make those products any less dangerous if misused?

what if an employee who develops cancer sues you, after finding out that they worked w/a known carcinogen, and you failed to provide them w/an msds sheet, or didn't make them aware of the possible danger?






do you subscribe to the notion of 'never smarten up a chump'?

 

[hdtran]

(Delurk)
(Plant tongue firmly in cheek)

People are required to have a driver's license before driving, right?

People are required to show a PADI or NAUI card before renting Scuba gear.

My dogs are supposed to have a license from the city, along with vaccination tags. (Actually, they do).

So, how about licensing amateur aquarists? (Step away from that Tang slowly, then reach into your pocket and show me your license, sir...)

(Unplanting tongue from cheek)
(relurking...)

 

[JennM]

Yes I think it's unreasonable and unlikely to ask for full disclosure. Many ingredients are proprietary and disclosure would compromise the "secrecy" involved in the formulas companies use...

IE: Reef Crystals vs. Kent Salt.

I think there should be disclosure if there is an ingredient(s) that are potentially poisonous, etc. that's common sense, but you'd have to lobby to get a law passed... it's not high on my list of priorities at the moment.

As for non-toxic, non-hazardous materials, I don't think there is any need for an ingredients list, but that's just my opinion.

Jenn

 

[tazdevil]

shouldn't there also be a way to take legal action against an aqualizerator, after a consumer finds out that the device, and the claims, are bogus?

Yes vitz, there should. Problem is, you have to prove that there was an intent to defraud the customer, and that is difficult. Getting the govn'mt to get involved (unless it is an obvious fraud, or has affected many people) is difficult. That's why these people can get away with this. That does not make them right for doing it, but then again, I can sleep at night knowing the work I do is to help, not defraud someone. A new branch of govn'mt to look at these problems may be what's needed.

 

[Ad van Tage]

You didn't read what I said, Wayne.

The difference in attitude between Canadians and Americans (as I see it, and in my personal opinion!)

Canadians want and expect the government to care for them from cradle to grave.

Americans want the government to stay out of their business, and let them get on with it.

(oops did I say that?!) Jenn

That's a huge assumption on your part, Jenn! And a double whammy at that:

(as I see it, and in my personal opinion!)

Not only that, but what bearing do your assumptions have on a discussion of CDT testing HERE?

If anyone - regardless of citizenship and/or current physical location - makes a remark about the pros or cons of a particular "Industry behind the Hobby" situation, WHY would their citizenship and/or current physical location make one bit of difference, and have to come up in the discussion, UNLESS it is actually relevant?
A bit of good natured ribbing about who has the best beer [ And yes, Guinne$$$ is an "Irish" beer, although it is brewed in CANADA too... for the US!!! ]
is one thing... I'm all for some light-hearted threads, even with a pint of bitter thrown in...

But I for one, as a Canadian, AND as a resident of this great country find it galling to repeatedly read remarks about the socalled "socialist" Canadians.


Rest assured, WE, in the True White North , are about as diverse as is possible.###
And I might quickly add, that I believe many of my American "Cousins", are in the same situation.
Just look around Jenn, and stop using platitudes and stereotypes!

It is bad enough to have Americans chew out with lines like:
"Your love for Socialism doesn't play all that well in the "land of the free and the home of the brave." ***
but to have EXPATRIATE Canadians regurgitate much the same cudd - here - is particularly galling!

Surely WE don't want to end up with "Political Stars & Stripes / Nationalities behind the Hobby"?

I try to respect YOUR options, opinions and perspectives. Do US the courtesy and leave us ours!!!

Now let's get back to discussing what flies we can find in the MACointment,
or in any other alphabet soup for that matter,
PLEASE. :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:


ONE CANADIAN in CANADA

____________________
~~ Ad aka Ecoworrier ~~

PS Jenn, I appreciate what you are trying to do in this fishy business; namely advocate a clean hobby, and sell clean product. Let's concentrate on that!

*** Tell that to the many many US (senior) citizens who buy their pills in CANADA... Yep etailing is big business in Manitoba...

### And we are so tolerant that we have everything from left-wing-nuts to Neo-Nazis in this country. And unless you have traveled from coast to coast, from Halifax to Vancouver, or the other way around, by road, by many routes, and many times, please do not try to "inform" US about who CANADIANs are!!!

$$$ http://worldofbeer.com/brightbeer/sapporo.html
and http://www.guinness-webstore.com/Guinne ... /index.asp
And "Mabel, Black Label!" is soooooooooo dated! Try some "Honey Brown", or "Warthog"

 

[Anonymous]

could we please not digress to yet another discussion about cyanide, or a sump style thread about how we percieve each other through stereotypes?

(shame on you wayne, for starting the digression, you, jenn for taking the troll bait, and ad vantage, for escalating what's sure to become an inane argument to even a higher level :?

y'all can always start a thread of yer own, to deal w/how these issues pertain to the industry, if you so desire :wink:


you're all invited to the sump, as well :wink: