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kalk wrote...


I used the three most current years, Which is likely far more accurate then averaging all the years of testing together. If I lump the last twenty years of PI fish collection numbers together .......I would not come up with an accurate measure for total fish imported today. Nor would an average of coral imports from 1995 to today........Nor the number of reef tanks in America starting in 1995 to present day. Old data is old data.


ok, so unless you know that the testing, or data gathering methodology measurably changed over the years, how can you say that older data is any less or more accurate than present data collected?

if one is monitoring trends, how can old data be irrelevant or innacurate?

depending on how the data was collected, there's even a possibility that the data for 'older' years is actually more accurate for those years :wink:


age of data has nothing to do w/accuracy of the data
 

Kalkbreath

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Because I showed that every other aspect of the trade has changed , the number of reef hobbyists.....the total number of fish exported from PI ......the number of anti cyanide organizations in PI {like MAC} Etc...............And most importantly , Even Peters own data changed drastically each year ......and went from 60% to 8% ! If the cyanide rate can go from 60% to 8% in four years.........Anything is possible! ................ What other ten year old data would you feel comfortable using to gauge present day stats ? hobbyists using DLS trickle filters?
 

mkirda

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vitz":1rusmdxi said:
ok, so unless you know that the testing, or data gathering methodology measurably changed over the years, how can you say that older data is any less or more accurate than present data collected?

if one is monitoring trends, how can old data be irrelevant or innacurate?

depending on how the data was collected, there's even a possibility that the data for 'older' years is actually more accurate for those years :wink:


age of data has nothing to do w/accuracy of the data

Vitz,

Why are you even bothering with this?
Despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that nearly every single one of Kalk's assertions is flat-out wrong, he continues 'to believe'.
Already I have shown that he picks and chooses his data, applies a flawed circuitous 'logic' to the data that supports his argument, then ends up at his derived truth.
In other words, this is the outcome Kalk supports, so he picks only the data that supports this outcome.
Every rational attempt to show him that picking and choosing the data is wrong, that the assumptions underlying his argument are wrong thereby making the entire argument suspect, or that simple statistical analysis of the data does not support his conclusions has been met with him restating the same thing over and over again.

It is an article of faith to him and no amount of rationality will get through that faith.

Please, for the love of god and man, get off the merry-go-round.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 
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mkirda":qkfo8e0r said:
vitz":qkfo8e0r said:
ok, so unless you know that the testing, or data gathering methodology measurably changed over the years, how can you say that older data is any less or more accurate than present data collected?

if one is monitoring trends, how can old data be irrelevant or innacurate?

depending on how the data was collected, there's even a possibility that the data for 'older' years is actually more accurate for those years :wink:


age of data has nothing to do w/accuracy of the data

Vitz,

Why are you even bothering with this?
Despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that nearly every single one of Kalk's assertions is flat-out wrong, he continues 'to believe'.
Already I have shown that he picks and chooses his data, applies a flawed circuitous 'logic' to the data that supports his argument, then ends up at his derived truth.
In other words, this is the outcome Kalk supports, so he picks only the data that supports this outcome.
Every rational attempt to show him that picking and choosing the data is wrong, that the assumptions underlying his argument are wrong thereby making the entire argument suspect, or that simple statistical analysis of the data does not support his conclusions has been met with him restating the same thing over and over again.

It is an article of faith to him and no amount of rationality will get through that faith.

Please, for the love of god and man, get off the merry-go-round.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

to simply show kalk that he doesn't have a clue as to what the definition of 'accuracy' is :wink:
 

Kalkbreath

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Because I use data and facts as the backbone of my position, You and people like you use Fluff as the weapon ........even when faced with piles of actual data and math......like I list in my position..... where are your numbers? Why no math in your faith based opinion. There is a reason you dont like to use fresh data and the idea of going beyond the simple mind set of testing ten years ago showed x number of cyanide fish ........because further examination shows that the percentage can and does change drastically depending on other circumstance,. Thats how the test results changed from 60% to 8% so quickly. ...........Ill turn it back on you .....see how devoid of data or substance and baseless your comeback is ..............

Why are you even bothering with this?
Despite the overwhelming amount of evidence that nearly every single one of MKirdas' assertions is flat-out wrong, he continues 'to believe'.
Already I have shown that he picks and chooses his data, applies a flawed circuitous 'logic' to the data that supports his argument, then ends up at his derived truth.
In other words, this is the outcome MKirda supports, so he picks only the data that supports this outcome.
Every rational attempt to show him that picking and choosing the data is wrong, that the assumptions underlying his argument are wrong thereby making the entire argument suspect, or that simple statistical analysis of the data does not support his conclusions has been met with him restating the same thing over and over again.

It is an article of faith to him and no amount of rationality will get through that faith.

Please, for the love of god and man, get off the merry-go-round.

Regards.
Kalkbreath
 

PeterIMA

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Kalk, Why is it that your "data" seems to change with your postings, even on the same thread. Of course, I won't object if you demand that the MAC produce their CTD data..

Peter
 

mkirda

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Kalkbreath":1vkowajb said:
Ill turn it back on you .....see how devoid of data or substance and baseless your comeback is ..............

Kalk,

I have already gone down this road eight or nine times with you already.
I've given you the data you asked for and proved your baseless assertions wrong, some half a dozen times or more. I don't care to repeat myself anymore. If you want to re-visit the past, use the Search function. It is right between FAQ and Memberlist at the top of this page.

I just love the 'you and people like you' comment. It just oozes class.

Why not throw out the lowest data point and re-run your numbers?
It makes just as much sense as tossing the highest.

Toodles.
Mike Kirda
 

Kalkbreath

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You did when? You never explained how if 80% of cyanide fish die from collection to retailer [which is supported in several trade publications including Peters writings] How this would not translate into very few of the cyanide collected fish reaching the last step .......being purchased by the consumer? If its 80% BEFORE the cyanide fish are set out in the retail displays.......its most likely over 90% after a few more days setting in the LFS! Did you somewhere respond to the idea that net collected fish would also need to have the same 80% DOA rate to retailers in order for the ratios to remain unchanged from Peters test! Even then , even if both net collected fish and two week old cyanide fish [in the later stages of cyanide poisoning] arrive at the retailers still in a 80% to twenty percent ratio...........that the net collected fish wont be chosen over the cyanide fish by the customer! [the culling of distressed cyanide fish at the time of purchase would also reduce the 20% cyanide portion to less ] I missed when you explained this? How bout a Quote from the past?
 
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and the wheel keeps turning, and turning, and turning. Now if I could just harness the energy from you three's rotating postings, I will have finally found a truly endless supply of energy.
 

PeterIMA

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Gresham, Wait-Stop the wheel. Kalk acutally said something meaningful.

"You never explained how 80% of cyanided fish die from collection to retail[which is supported in several trade publications including Peter's writings]"

Of course he confuses the fact that the 80% figure refers to "cumulative mortality" throught the chain of custody from collector to retail, when he speaks about 80% before the fish are set out (in the retail store).


What is important it that Kalk is admitting that the cumulative mortality is over 80%. That is a significant admission. We need to get back to discussing what could be causing the mortality. I have been reviewing the published literature. I will be discussing it further on this forum. The quick answer it that fish die for a variety of reasons. Not all of the 80% cumulative mortality is due to the fact the fish were caught with cyanide.

Peter
 

mkirda

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Kalkbreath":ms8ki43l said:
You did when? I missed when you explained this? How bout a Quote from the past?

Kalk,

As I said, I am not interested in the least in rehashing this for the tenth time.
I already got off the merry-go-round.
If you want to see what I have said on the topic in that past, use the Search function.
I've already directed you to where to find it.
It is up to you to use it.
 

Kalkbreath

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PeterIMA":1wkm8dt6 said:
Gresham, Wait-Stop the wheel. Kalk acutally said something meaningful.

"You never explained how 80% of cyanided fish die from collection to retail[which is supported in several trade publications including Peter's writings]"

Of course he confuses the fact that the 80% figure refers to "cumulative mortality" throught the chain of custody from collector to retail, when he speaks about 80% before the fish are set out (in the retail store).


What is important it that Kalk is admitting that the cumulative mortality is over 80%. That is a significant admission. We need to get back to discussing that could be causing the mortality. I have been reviewing the published literature. I will be discussing it further on this forum. The quick answer it that fish die for a variety of reasons. Not all of the 80% cumulative mortality is due to the fact the fish were caught with cyanide.

Peter
No I am pointing out that you said it [the 80%] Not that I think it. And Specificly the 80% was talking about cyanide fish ........
A large proportion (perhaps more than 80%) of the stunned fish, that survive the initial
exposure to cyanide, die later throughout the chain from reef to retailer (Rubec 1986, Appendix 1).
...............
The FAMA series by Steve Robinson identified a so called cyanide syndrome characterised by a failure to eat or by a ravenous appetite, swelling, an exudate from the intestine, and death within four to six weeks. It was said that 80% of delayed aquarium fish mortalities were due to cyanide collection. Finally another published report described sloughing of the intestinal epithelium. This seemed to explain the exudate, the starvation with or without feeding, and the delayed mortality. Contributors of this series of observations, in addition to Robinson, were Herwig, Rubic and Bellwood, and FAMA
and even in Cervitos' paper on cyanide effects on coral.......... Its been quite clear the 80% was attatched to cyanide fishing......not net collected fish . But no matter what the actual rate of survival for net collected fish ......its going to be lower for poison collected fish . And that means that the 20 percent finding in your study , will decrease every time more cyanide fish die then net collected fish along the many steps to retailers...... :wink: Which is why the actual rate of cyanide fish purchased is far less then 20% and most likely around five percent. :wink:
 

PeterIMA

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Kalk, Please identify the source of the second Quote. Most of the information presented was in a review article I wrote in Marine Fish Monthly in 1987, but I don't believe that what you have presented here is a direct Quote.

With regard to your argument that the percentage of fishes caught with cyanide declines to the retail level, my response is that I don't agree. I also noted that we don't know, because we can not distinguish deaths from stress, starvation, ammonia, and cyanide, and/or the combination of factors at the retail level. I also pointed out previously that it is best to take steps to alleviate the problems by a) stopping cyanide use by the collectors, and b) doing some studies to determine the best means of shipping fish to alleviate stress, ammonia, and starvation.
I believe that I sent you my Net-Caught Cyanide-Free paper where all the factors influencing fish during collection and transport were discussed.

It is pointless to argue about whether the proportion of fish with cyanide declines through the chain of custody from the collection sites to retailers. How about raising money for net-training or for some research to deal with all of the problems contributing to fish mortality?

Peter Rubec (not Rubic)
 

aquatic ian

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while the thought of cyanide fishing makes me sick to the bones , talking about it and educating each other makes perfect sence ,

both sides of this discussion have been doing their best to discredit each other .
stick to the facts , stuff is still going to happen ...... despite your dislike for each other
 

Kalkbreath

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PeterIMA":3s48s9b7 said:
Kalk, Please identify the source of the second Quote. Most of the information presented was in a review article I wrote in Marine Fish Monthly in 1987, but I don't believe that what you have presented here is a direct Quote.

With regard to your argument that the percentage of fishes caught with cyanide declines to the retail level, my response is that I don't agree. I also noted that we don't know, because we can not distinguish deaths from stress, starvation, ammonia, and cyanide, and/or the combination of factors at the retail level. I also pointed out previously that it is best to take steps to alleviate the problems by a) stopping cyanide use by the collectors, and b) doing some studies to determine the best means of shipping fish to alleviate stress, ammonia, and starvation.
I believe that I sent you my Net-Caught Cyanide-Free paper where all the factors influencing fish during collection and transport were discussed.

It is pointless to argue about whether the proportion of fish with cyanide declines through the chain of custody from the collection sites to retailers. How about raising money for net-training or for some research to deal with all of the problems contributing to fish mortality?

Peter Rubec (not Rubic)
The idea that very few customers walk home with a cyanide collected fish is something very important if you dont want to be lied to and or you are looking for the real reason many fish die after being purchased. Blaming the deaths on Cyanide is not only incorrect , but an out right lie if we are to believe your study. The blame game has been played out for twenty years.......now its time for the truth. Also , I dont agree that its the collection of fish in the islands that harms so many . I recieve shipments each week from several countries .......I never {well almost} have a problem with DOA or DAA. My opinion is only when a middle man holds the fish and corals do DOAs increase. ...........Therefor the activities and husbantry practiced in the native islands seems to not be an issue. lastly sorry for the mis spell [Rubec] and you know whom the unsited quote was from ....... :wink:
 

Kalkbreath

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aquatic ian":1bf8vcyi said:
while the thought of cyanide fishing makes me sick to the bones , talking about it and educating each other makes perfect sence ,

both sides of this discussion have been doing their best to discredit each other .
stick to the facts , stuff is still going to happen ...... despite your dislike for each other
I dont dislike Peter Rubec, We are simply having a gentlemen's disagreement. :wink:
 

aquatic ian

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wasnt trying to sugest who likes who ,and who doesnt like who .

i just think its an important discussion , although many feel its fruitless and talking in circles
 

PeterIMA

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Hey, Wait a minute! Kalk, please retract your statement about my study being an outright lie. I never lied about anything. I have always provided facts as I saw them. Cyanide was and is a major problem contributing to delayed mortality in the marine aquarium fish trade. It is not the only problem, and I have published facts from the scientific literature to substantiate that as well. You are the one deliberately trying to distort the issues (like claiming that all of the delayed mortality is due to cyanide and then stating that I lied about it).

Lets get back to the so-called direct quotes that you listed were published. I have repeatedly asked you to substantiate your sources of information. Where did you take the quotes from? Certainly, not directly from my publications. By the way Kalk, what have you published that makes you an expert?
PS-Postings on Reefs.org don't count as publications.
 

Kalkbreath

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I was not saying you were a liar ...............I was pointing out that tyhe long standing idea that hobby fish die from cyanide and that anyone who claims the main reason fish die during transport , at the LFS or after being purchsed ...Is due to cyanide has nothing to back the notion up. At best testing showed 25% of the fish being imported were tainted. Even less if we account for that very few of this 25% reach the consumer. .........................
House testimony":3dsyn8w3 said:
A large proportion (perhaps more than 80%) of the stunned fish, that survive the initial
exposure to cyanide, die later throughout the chain from reef to retailer (Rubec 1986, Appendix 1).
There is controversy whether all these deaths are due to cyanide. Some of the mortalities may be due
to other factors, such as ammonia that accumulates in the shipping bags. IMA has tried to make the
The 80% quote IS from your paper. Did you not realize it was in YOUR work? There are many many people quoting your paper and the 80% cyanide data you include in the House testimony. As for the second quote I listed ............ I listed a certain persons response that I thought you might remember, Thats why I used it.
" The Controversial Use of Cyanide"
Cyanide is a deadly poison. Like a gun, it is dangerous in the hands of the wrong person, whether that person be a collector or a writer. For too many years, articles in aquarium magazines have deplored the collection of marine fish with cyanide for two reasons, one true and the other false. That cyanide is destructive to the reefs is absolutely true. What isn't true is that fish collected with cyanide will eventually starve and die. In fact, fish collected with nets will also starve and die, as we'll see later.

Cyanide is a cheap, common industrial chemical used in gold mining, electroplating and steel mills. Free cyanide (CN-) can bind with many common metals, including substances we normally think of as salt constituents. When the relatively safe potassium salt of cyanide is mixed with an acid, the two react to release a deadly hydrogen cyanide gas which causes rapid asphyxiation. Waste industrial free cyanide, when released into the environment, binds with waste industrial metals like nickel, zinc and copper or with common environmental metals like potassium and sodium. It can also react with industrial chlorine compounds to produce toxic cyanogen chloride and other noxious substances at a very high pH. In short it can be safe when a salt, but deadly as a gas or a chlorinated liquid.

How does it work? Hydrogen cyanide gas interferes with the enzymes which facilitate oxidative phosphorylation, the mechanism by which we store energy in phosphate bonds for later use to drive metabolic reactions. In biochemistry, we indicate a high energy phosphate bond as ~PO4 or just ~P for short. The enzymes required to store energy in phosphate bonds depends on oxygen, and that's why the process is called phosphorylation. Tehre are two steps. In the first step, we take adenosine monophosphate ( AMP or A-P) and add one high energy phosphate bond, forming adenosine diphosphate (ADP or A-P~P). In the the second stage we add another ~P to form adenosine triphosphate (ATP or A-P~P~P). The tail end ~P of ATP is unstable, easy to save and easy to spend. Many of our body's chemical reactions give up that last ~P to fuel the reaction. Cyanide throws sugar in our gas tank, locking up the engine that makes us go.

As with all drugs, the effect of acute (sudden exposure) cyanide poisoning depends on the dose. At very low doses, there is no effect. At higher doses, the cyanide causes a shutdown of much of the animal's oxidative phosphoylation ( adding that final ~P to ADP to make ATP). The animal passes out and may die within minutes. At still higher doses, all oxidative phosphoylation shuts down and the animal rapidly dies. How much is anaesthetic and how much is lethal? As with all drugs, it depends on age, species, metabolic rate, body weight of the animal and contact time. Some animals require a huge amount for anaesthesia, while others are killed by very small doses. Fishery biologists in the past sometimes used cyanide as an anaesthetic for some species of fish at carefully controlled doses. As with all medications, an important measure of safety is the difference between the effective dose and the toxic dose. (That difference is one basis for deciding whether a medicine should be available over the counter or only by prescription). Because the lethal dose is only slightly higher than the anaesthetic dose, cyanide is not a safe anaesthetic even under laboratory conditions. Therefore, fishery biologists usually use much safer anaesthetics such as MS-222 or quinaldine.

Following World War 2, dynamite was widely used in some parts of the Pacific to break up nearshore coral reefs as a source for building and construction. Dynamite also stuns fish, and commercial fisherman in many areas adopted it as a more effective in deep water than traps or hook and line, in locations where they could not use nets which hung up on corals.

Many governments appalled at the destruction of the reefs for such a low return product as fish (vs. a high return product such as construction) banned the use of dynamite for fishing. Not to be thwarted, fisherman then adopted the use of cyanide to collect fish. It was cheap and, more importantly, silent, so that its use a mile off of the beach would not attract attention from the local authorities. In some cases where there were no mining or industrial operations nearby to supply the cyanide, the foreign fish buyers provided it. The product was clean, unmarked and the market was growing with development around the Pacific- rim.

Fresh caught fish must be iced for holding and transport, or shipped very quickly to the end user. In the last decade, fresh fish prices have been dwarfed by the price paid for live fish. Today in Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and even Beijing, restaurant windows feature live animals in aquariums and terrariums. Passers by note what is in the window, enter the restaurant and order that live animal for lunch or dinner. The assortment is mind- boggling, including farm raised tilapia, eels, foxfaces, groupers, grunts, snappers, wrasse, parrotfish, tangs, turtle and even American largemouth bass and bullfrogs. Locales in the central Pacific, including some portions of the Philippines and Indonesia, are major suppliers of reef fish collected, legally or otherwise, by cyanide. Fish that die are used locally or frozen for export, while survivors are shipped to newly emerging economic powerhouse cities in live tanks where they demand a much higher price.

Cyanide collecting of marine fish for food or the aquarium market is still practiced in many places in the low wage countries of the western Pacific where net, traps, hook and line, and aquaculture are increasing. It, nevertheless, difficult to assess whether a box of fish brought to a buyer anywhere was collected by net, trap, bleach, cyanide, quinaldine, or even puffer poison. The only way to be certain is to go out with that collector, and in many cases, that is not feasible or the buyer doesn't want to know. What are the consequences of chemical collecting? It is undeniable that bleach, cyanide and quinaldine are cost- effective at anaesthetising fish or chasing them out of holes. The downside of collecting fish in this manner are several. First, the dose is uncontrollable because concentrated drug is squirted from a plastic bottle to inside or outside a hole with very varied currents. Fish of different species and sizes have different susceptibilities, respond to different contact times, and many will die almost immediately. More important are the effects on invertebrates, which are in some cases more susceptible to than fish. Tubeworms can withdraw and, in the process, rapidly flush out, or otherwise avoid a noxious chemical, but coral polyps have no such defence. The effects of cyanide collecting on coral reefs have been documented to be devastating to the corals and other marine life.

But what about small tropical marine fish collected in the central Pacific with cyanide and shipped to the American aquarium market? Following a series of articles in FAMA by Steve Robinson and others a few years ago, a mass hysteria raced through the marine industry fed by anecdotes passing as science, authors promoting themselves as authorities, and defensive exporters with their livelihoods at stake, testifying with as much credibility as a criminal. The low point occurred when the same people raising the hue and cry against cyanide collecting began hawking at their own cyanide free, net caught fish, mixing their message with commercial self promotion. The FAMA series by Steve Robinson identified a so called cyanide syndrome characterised by a failure to eat or by a ravenous appetite, swelling, an exudate from the intestine, and death within four to six weeks. It was said that 80% of delayed aquarium fish mortalities were due to cyanide collection. Finally another published report described sloughing of the intestinal epithelium. This seemed to explain the exudate, the starvation with or without feeding, and the delayed mortality. Contributors of this series of observations, in addition to Robinson, were Herwig, Rubic and Bellwood, and FAMA was the place to get the scoop.

What was missing from the hoopla was science. Experiments were conducted without controls. Pathological changes were reported by non- pathologists, and the medical and biochemistry literature was dismissed as irrelevant because it didn't support the anecdotes. In 1995, D. R. Bellwood, one of the contributors to the early erroneous information did penance by essentially retracting his earlier findings in a new report, this time in a scientific journal (Hall & Bellwood, 1995, Journal of Biology, vol 47, pp 438- 454). This time, controlled studies were conducted of cyanide exposure, stress and gut epithelium in Pomacentrus. The results were as revealing as the analysis was thorough. There were no changes in gut epithelium associated with anaesthetic cyanide exposure (10ppm for a minute and a half). The mortality of fish exposed to anaesthetic doses of cyanide was the same as the mortality of net caught fish. Gut epithelium changes were associated with starvation, and starvation alone, as has been reported in many other fish. Withholding food alone did not kill any more fish than controls, as fish could tolerate extended starving. High mortalities were associated with stress. The highest mortalities were associated with both starved and stressed. (Stress was the removal of hiding places comparable to holding fish in pet stores in bare tanks.) The mechanism by which stress enhances mortality were not discovered, but there was no evidence that anaesthetic doses of cyanide caused either gut epithelial changes or more mortality than occurred with net caught fish.

Are wild marine fish from some localities more likely to die than those collected from elsewhere, and is it due to cyanide vs. net collecting? The answer is a resounding yes and no. Yes in that some places are riskier than others as sources of healthy marine fish. And no, in that net collecting marine fish doesn't deliver healthier fish than collecting with cyanide based on the evidence to date. Then what kills fish? The answers are stress, stress and stress. Stress when they are collected, stress when they are stored or shipped and stress when they are placed in new tanks in shops or homes. Recently one television programme featured a couple of collectors in Hawaii, lauding their environmentally conscious use of nets and their care in removing gas from the swim bladder with a hypodermic needle. What was not explained was why these fish needed to be degassed with a needle rather than decompressed by bringing them to the surface slowly as is done elsewhere. The collectors claimed a mortality of much less than 1%, hyperbole so bizarre as to throw credibility of everything else they say into doubt. A dozen years ago, I visited a one man net collector at his facility, a mobile home up slope and a large tank lower on the beach. This tank was so filthy, turbid and crowded, that I wondered if he had ever changed any water. And that was in Hawaii, USA, my friends.

Wild fish can be exposed to many stressors between the time they are caught and the time they get to your aquarium. They can include days or weeks of starvation, sudden cold or very hot temperatures, oxygen deprivation, ammonia or nitrite build up, rapid pH shifts, sudden exposure to bright light, no hiding places, being chased, bitten, scratched, cut stung and beaten with hard containers and nets. And don't forget degassing with a hypodermic needle.

Net collecting is preferable to chemical collecting because it damages ancillary damage to reefs. But collecting with traps, such as pipes and cans, can also be harmless to the reef and produce less stress on captured fish than chasing them with a hand net across sharp rocks and into an entangling and cutting gill net. The idea that Philippine, Indonesian or Ceylonese fish are inferior to Hawaiian or western Pacific fish because of cyanide is unwarranted. If the fish from any supplier anywhere are inferior, it is because of collecting and handling and difficulties in shipping. If your fish doesn't eat and starves to death, stress or diet may be the cause. If it dies for no apparent reason, look to stress, temperature, water chemistry, competition or an inappropriate diet.

Blaming deaths on cyanide use in some parts of the world, as bad as it is to reefs, is a red herring.

Reproduced from an article by Robert Goldstein in the October 1997 edition of Freshwater and Marine Aquarium magazine
But keep in mind I only posted all of it NOW because you DEMANDED it. :wink:
 

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