only 5% of sold fish are cyanide collected.

[Anonymous]

If you and/or the MAC feel that it is necessary to defend the cyanide cartel, I will be happy to face you or the MAC's lawyers.

I do not like being rolled in with MAC or the cyanide cartel in this way. I'm opposed to destructive collection techniques. I do not like the cyanide cartel.

 

[Anonymous]

just for my own clarification and understanding - according to the standards required by mac for certification, there should be exact records at these locations, on a fish by fish basis, that would substantiate these claims, and show how long these livestock were in the facility, and when they were sold ?

Beats me. Why not try asking MAC or their certified retailers?

 

[clarionreef]

Cyanide cartel?
Wow! I always heard there was one but to see it validated in discussion by opposites sides is something else.
I used to get attacked for using the term and now its part of the lexicon. [ mind you, the head of said cartel is certified...and the rest ill follow one day ]
Well....thats some progress. The first step on the road to 'recovery' is to admit there is a problem.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Honestly, I have no knowledge of any "cyanide cartel" except that I do not want to be associtated with such a derogaratory term.

I don't know whether any "cyanide cartel" exists or who might be associated with it if it were found to exist. However, I suspect that there might likely be a bigfoot/cyanide cartel link if they were both found to exist.

Frankly, it is yaw'lls term and not mine.

 

[mkirda]

Jeez, guys...


You know Kalk is laughing at all of you now, right?

 

[Anonymous]

Levity is good sometimes. Far be it from me to keep Kalk from a good laugh.

 

[mkirda]

Levity is good sometimes. Far be it from me to keep Kalk from a good laugh.

But is is not a good levity, Lee.

This is like watching Jerry Lewis movies.
Painful and so incredibly NOT funny...

 

[Anonymous]

lee

if the term 'cartel' makes you uncomfortable,(and i don't understand why it should), how about the term 'cyanide users'?

 

[Anonymous]

just for my own clarification and understanding - according to the standards required by mac for certification, there should be exact records at these locations, on a fish by fish basis, that would substantiate these claims, and show how long these livestock were in the facility, and when they were sold ?

Beats me. Why not try asking MAC or their certified retailers?

because...

Interestingly, the one MAC certified retailer that I have personal experience with has always quarentined their livestock prior to sale. I believe the owner once publicly said that mortalities with MAC certified livestock was almost zero, except for a couple of jumpers. I believe that another certified retailer that I know publicly said the same thing as well.

you seemed to be offering the anecdotal evidence to offer a point-not mac :wink:

you mentioned a nameless supplier you know of that practices good husbandry irrespective of the mac standards- "has always quarentined their livestock prior to sale",then you say you "believe the owner once publicly said that mortalities with MAC certified livestock was almost zero, except for a couple of jumpers".
then you say you "I believe that another certified retailer that I know publicly said the same thing as well"

i'm unclear as to what point this unsure recollection of hearsay makes, and my interpretation was that you were offering it in a way of presenting a positive 'claim' about mac (mebbe my mistake), but it's not a very good 'proof' for the claim, imo

 

[Anonymous]

just for my own clarification and understanding - according to the standards required by mac for certification, there should be exact records at these locations, on a fish by fish basis, that would substantiate these claims, and show how long these livestock were in the facility, and when they were sold ?

Vitz,

I don't have access to the exact records you seek. Go to the source if you are interested.

-Lee

 

[clarionreef]

Now Vitz,
The exporters association has no members who 'use' poison to spray corals and collect fish. Cartels are composed of ...well exporters. These are city folk who are as detached from the sea, the reef and the fishing villages as they can be. This detachment has bred an indifference to life beyond their own business culture and an incomprehension of the consequences of their way of doing business on the marine environment..
Since however...there are no exporters without importers...there have always been accomplices, ie. 'partners in crime' on both sides of the ocean.
Wire transfers go out daily to support the trade as its run from this country, Canada , Japan and Europe etc.
More money went out this morning then ever went into netting materials to do the thing right.
Exporters merely arrange and finance the acquistion of drums of sodium cyanide for distribution to divers. Hence they are not technically users...but pushers. 'Financiers' has a more dignified ring to it and that would be less offensive... because there is a strong push for people to be polite in the analysis of this problem.
Whatever people think of this debate...understand this; The divers don't get cyanide by themselves. The business people secure it for them. Business people who fax, e-mail and communicate with their North American importer/buyers nearly everyday.
In America, users are seen more as pathetic victims but pushers and financiers....well, we have a special loathing for those more premeditated, morally disabled types...and especially the leaders of their organizations.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, I see we agree on the definition of cyanide cartel.

Peter

 

[Kalkbreath]

I think the term "Mafia" would be more appropriate. A cartel is usually the majority player ........only one forth of the fish would make cyanide fish the exception... Peter, what percentage of the fish today in 2004 do you think are collected with juice? ............ from PI. And why. Also why have you so little interest in the results from 2001?

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, I believe the names Mafia and Cosa Nostra already belong to another organization, that I can not yet link to the cyanide cartel. Irrespective of how much cyanide is used, I used the term to refer to those responsible for distributing cyanide to collectors and buying cyanide-caught fish. Actually, there are several cartels, one in Indonesia and another in the Philippines that I know have names. The others in Malaysia and Vietnam may be linked to the former.

As far as the 2001 data, I still need to analyze it (as I stated previously). I am interested in it. However, I am more interested in finding ways to stop the use of cyanide. So, I am waiting for decisions and/or actions by goverment agencies and possibly the MAC.

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
If its true that its only aA quarter of the fish are caught w/ cyanide...you mean the most important and classic species like blue tangs, clown triggers and angels?
Wartering down the importance of that by dilution w/ the huge nembers of chromis, damsels, clowns and firefish is a deception and a smug little math trick thats all. Its not even clever and makes as much sense as pointing out how big the Sahara desert is and therefore surmising that there is no population problem in Africa.
The "all we are is dust in the wind" so nothing ever matters mantra is old, silly and very misleading.
Thank goodness you have zero followers. Pretty bad record for mouthing off for all these years to find no allies....none.
Ruining and spamming RDO is just revenge therapy for you isn't it?
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

You have spent twenty years with the same approach and gotten where? ........I am part of the new reeform..........There is a new force in the industry and it has reformed fifty percent of the cyanide industry already ........its called the Reef Tank. The demand for cyanide fish like large angles and a large volume of fish are over. The demand for hobby fish from places like PI and INDO is getting smaller and smaller evey few years . The reef tank has already decreased cyanide fishing by 60% .How many total cyanide fish were collected ten years ago and how many today? lets assume the ratio of cyanide fish to net collected is the same today as it was in the 1980s and early 1990s. There are 60% less fish being exported now . That alone translates into a 60% decrease in cyanide use.{did the reeformers cause this?No reef tanks did} Next lets take into account that the demand for non cyanide fish like damsels mandarins and clownfish have actually increased! That again would affect the total number of cyanide fish collected for the hobby today. Lastly lets consider that live food fish collection and dead food fish collection has remained almost unchanged and has actually increased since the 1980s. {Back when you testified to congress that live food fishing's used cyanide exclusively} The future of this hobby is guided by the reef tank. Not only do todays hobbyists demand less fish ......but they also now demand tiny fish. Fish that are still plentiful {damsels chromis blennies mandarinsmake MAKE UP 50% ! }...and fish that are easy to collect without cyanide. With huge amounts of aquacultured corals setting in the waters of Bali Vanuatu Tonga and Fiji ........even the impact on the reefs from the collection of corals is decreasing at record levels. My followers, {Reef tank owners} have done more in the last few years to help the reefs then "THE REEFORMERS" twenty years of threats and unrealistic demands on third world island natives has ever come close to achieving.............. My movement has decreased fish demand and increase the value of a healthy live coral reef by placing value on the live coral itself. Your reeformers have never offered the natives a better alternative to destructive fishing. {other then starving} My movement offers an alternative way to earn a living. Lets sea which reeform group decreases our industrys impact more in the next twenty years......... :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Excuse me??
The reef trade evolves without your grace , permission or leadership.
For you to take any credit for it is silly.
All the rest of us are in it as well.
Percentage of reefies is up of course but the for many species of fish, the demand is at an all time high. Today the sheer numbers of hobbyists still create tremendous demand for fish and the trend toward the 'no-nothing' mass marketing of marinelife by chain stores with infinite appetite for volume is very disturbing. What do you think they specialize in? Fish of course!
There are far more beginners going thru thousands of boxes of Dory and Nemo fish etc. in these chains alone now...unlike before. The fact that you are oblivious to it makes no difference.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

You have spent twenty years with the same approach and gotten where? ........I am part of the new reeform..........There is a new force in the industry and it has reformed fifty percent of the cyanide industry already ........its called the Reef Tank. The demand for cyanide fish like large angles and a large volume of fish are over. The demand for hobby fish from places like PI and INDO is getting smaller and smaller evey few years . The reef tank has already decreased cyanide fishing by 60% .How many total cyanide fish were collected ten years ago and how many today? lets assume the ratio of cyanide fish to net collected is the same today as it was in the 1980s and early 1990s. There are 60% less fish being exported now . That alone translates into a 60% decrease in cyanide use.{did the reeformers cause this?No reef tanks did} Next lets take into account that the demand for non cyanide fish like damsels mandarins and clownfish have actually increased! That again would affect the total number of cyanide fish collected for the hobby today. Lastly lets consider that live food fish collection and dead food fish collection has remained almost unchanged and has actually increased since the 1980s. {Back when you testified to congress that live food fishing's used cyanide exclusively} The future of this hobby is guided by the reef tank. Not only do todays hobbyists demand less fish ......but they also now demand tiny fish. Fish that are still plentiful {damsels chromis blennies mandarinsmake MAKE UP 50% ! }...and fish that are easy to collect without cyanide. With huge amounts of aquacultured corals setting in the waters of Bali Vanuatu Tonga and Fiji ........even the impact on the reefs from the collection of corals is decreasing at record levels. My followers, {Reef tank owners} have done more in the last few years to help the reefs then "THE REEFORMERS" twenty years of threats and unrealistic demands on third world island natives has ever come close to achieving.............. My movement has decreased fish demand and increase the value of a healthy live coral reef by placing value on the live coral itself. Your reeformers have never offered the natives a better alternative to destructive fishing. {other then starving} My movement offers an alternative way to earn a living. Lets sea which reeform group decreases our industrys impact more in the next twenty years......... :wink:

This one goes down with the 'eel rubbings' as a true classic 'Kalk' post.
"I am part of the new Reeform."
What a gas!

 

[PeterIMA]

Lets see now, There is a) Reeform, b) REEFform, and should we call it KALKFORM? What about the MACFORMists?

I vote that Kalk start registering his members. Better yet, how about Certified KALKFORMISTS? What fees should be charged and what are the benefits to a) the reefs, b) the trade, and c) marine hobbyists?

Kalk, Please explain the benefits.
Peter

 

[Kalkbreath]

What better way of ending cyanide then to end the demand for cyanide fish.?