only 5% of sold fish are cyanide collected.

[Kalkbreath]

And this is what happens when you cant explain your positions.........................you dont! :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

They say children often learn from example......so I will take the leed and support my notions.....hoping some one will follow.......

Kalk, You quoted my data (cited in the Cervino et al. 2004 paper) that more than 80% of MO fish die through the chain-of-custody (cumulative mortality) from reef-to-retailer (if one excludes the acute mortality on the reef). Let's not blame this on James Cervino but on myself (who was a co-author).

Then its official.....your on the record stating that cyanide collected fish survive just as well as net collected!I have never seen this idea put forth in your twenty years plus of work? Why the sudden change in opinion? I disagree that cyanide fish do not suffer from the effects of being cyanide exposed and so do a lot of other people. Once again your in the minority

You have not addressed my earlier posting that asserted that I believe that the percentage with cyanide present does not decline to the retail level. If you have a large population and you remove a portion (say 30%) at each step of chain, the proportion of fish with cyanide present in the remaining population of live fish stays constant (probably 25% based on IMA CDT results).

Again , you must then feel that cyanide exposed fish "SHIP " just as well as net collected fish . Thats an odd statement coming from someone whom feels that half of the fish die during the first few moments after being exposed on the reef , but then somehow have NO effects from the exposer for two weeks after?

Without testing at the USA level, (preferably at the retail level) it is difficult to verify whether your 5% or my 25% is the more accurate.

Then it would also seem to reason that its impossible to "verify" if ANY fish entering the US market have been collected with cyanide!

I did cite the case where a retailer in Gainesville had University of Florida scientists conduct histology on the liver of imported Indonesian MO fish. They found that 80% of the fish examined had necrosis (cells damaged and contracted) of the liver similar to what was documented with the livers of fish exposed to cyanide by Dempster and Donaldson (1974), Dixon and Leduc (1991), and Hanawa et al. (1998).

Then again another study supporting MY assertion that Second hand cyanide from the larger food fish collection industry is tainting all the fish from the region!

I disagree with your theory that the proportion of fishes containing cyanide declines through the chain and that it becomes as low as 5%. How about the LA importers supporting some research on these questions? Whether the trade funds anything or not; we will have a US-based CDT soon to look into these questions.

Peter

Yes , and I cant wait for the results ........There is every reason to believe that the results will be similar to 1998-99 when anti cyanide pressures were also in the region {like MAC is today]around 14% Minus the fish that dont make it to the retailers .... :wink: Its odd that you feel cyanide fish are in no way stressed from the exposer? :wink:

 

[mkirda]

And this is what happens when you cant explain your positions.........................you dont! :wink:

Kalk,

If you read the thread, you would have known that your entire argument has been shot down already. This is your thread- I expect that you would read it, even if it is spread like a cancer across several other threads now.

Having explained my position to you so many times, it comes as no surprise that you conveniently forgot this now, nor that you continue to spout the same disproved argument again and again. It fits your pattern (spelled out in one of the other threads you hijacked) to a 'T'.

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, The problem with your argument is that it assumes that all the cumulative mortality (>80% through the chain of custody) is due to cyanide. I never said that. Indeed, my Cyanide-free Net-caught paper published in 2001 discussed all possible sources of mortality (e.g., cyanide, stress, ammonia, starvation, secondary effects such as disease). You have ignored the other factors, while ranting about cyanide. The importers and retailers have high mortalities. They need to take steps to reduce the mortality rates, irrespective of what caused them. The aquarium trade does not deserve to exist if: a) fish are not collected sustainably, b) without harming coral reefs, and c) shipped in a manner that ensures the survival of the fish from reefs to retailers.

Peter

 

[Kalkbreath]

Wrong again ...........there only needs to be a greater mortality on the 20%cyanide fish then with the other 80% fish for the percent to decrease . If more fish from the cyanide portion{the percentage} of the shipment die then the net collected ........the percent of cyanide fish "landng"in th eUSA decreasesfrom 20% to LESS then twenty percent.The only way the ratio will stay the same is if poison cyanide collected fish die durring transport at the same rate as net collected fish............Is that what you are claiming?

 

[JennM]

What about all the reef creatures left dead on the reef from cyanide collection?

Even the most carefully collected fish will die if they are kept in putrid water after the fact. Do you acknowledge that?

Your selective twisting of facts to suit your argument grows tiresome, Kalk.

Jenn

 

[Kalkbreath]

What about all the reef creatures left dead on the reef from cyanide collection?

Even the most carefully collected fish will die if they are kept in putrid water after the fact. Do you acknowledge that?

Your selective twisting of facts to suit your argument grows tiresome, Kalk.

Jenn

What twisting? testing showed that 20% of collected PI fish showed cyanide present. Not all those fish reach the consumers. The idea that most of the fish we retailers sell are destined to die from cyanide poisoning is a lie. Explain to me the twisting?

 

[mkirda]

What twisting?

How you get 20% out of 25%...
Or how you get 5% out of 17.5%...

Circus freaks look at those numbers and go... How'd he do that?
THAT'S how twisted...

 

[Kalkbreath]

Whats hard to understand? Less of the cyanide fish reach the consumer then the net collected fish. Of every 100 fish 20 are cyanide collected {your numbers} how many of those 20 fish reach the consumer? You have repeatedly supported the idea that these fish are doomed from the exposer. {Liver damage}it takes on average four weeks to collect the fish , export, transship, display and sell the majority of those 20 fish. How many [what percentage} of those cyanide fish ever live long enough to be sold? Even if the fish reaches the LFS. how long does the average fish spend in a display before it is sold? Peter has claimed almost all cyanide collected fish die from the cyanide within three weeks. Half of MO fish spend that long at the LFS! Do you disagree that a cyanide collected fish has less of a chance being sold then a net collected? Do they die more then net collected ?, Do they look worse then net collected after two weeks? If your answer is yes to any of those questions then less then 20% reach the hobbyists.

 

[mkirda]

Whats hard to understand? Less of the cyanide fish reach the consumer then the net collected fish. Of every 100 fish 20 are cyanide collected {your numbers}

20% is your made-up number, and does not appear in any scientific journal anywhere you can cite, Kalk.

Let's do the Twist! Yeah!

 

[Kalkbreath]

8% .........18% ..........and 29% are the three most current years of test results for cyaide testing in the Philippines............You spent six months on this board supporting that data {Peters'} data.........now live with it.......... :lol: But your right.........its less then twenty percent its 18.3 percent so count down from there.............18% less transport is 13% then re-tranship to LFS is 9% and minus fish not sold in LFS for three weeks is 5% :wink:

 

[mkirda]

8% .........18% ..........and 29% are the three most current years of test results for cyaide testing in the Philippines............You spent six months on this board supporting that data {Peters'} data.........now live with it.......... :lol: But your right.........its less then twenty percent its 18.3 percent so count down from there.............18% less transport is 13% then re-tranship to LFS is 9% and minus fish not sold in LFS for three weeks is 5% :wink:

Why not go for broke? Start with 8% and end up at ZERO!

Problem? What Problem?
Kalk has mathematically proven that cyanide doesn't exist!

:wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Whats hard to understand? Less of the cyanide fish reach the consumer then the net collected fish. Of every 100 fish 20 are cyanide collected {your numbers} how many of those 20 fish reach the consumer? You have repeatedly supported the idea that these fish are doomed from the exposer. {Liver damage}it takes on average four weeks to collect the fish , export, transship, display and sell the majority of those 20 fish. How many [what percentage} of those cyanide fish ever live long enough to be sold? Even if the fish reaches the LFS. how long does the average fish spend in a display before it is sold? Peter has claimed almost all cyanide collected fish die from the cyanide within three weeks. Half of MO fish spend that long at the LFS! Do you disagree that a cyanide collected fish has less of a chance being sold then a net collected? Do they die more then net collected ?, Do they look worse then net collected after two weeks? If your answer is yes to any of those questions then less then 20% reach the hobbyists.

in the dozen + lfs's i've worked in, i've never seen 50% of the livestock hang around for 3 wks

in fact, i'd estimate that more than 80% remain in an lfs for less than a week

would this be your store you're usin as an example?


i doubt that sales figures at the wholesale level would back up your claim that 50% of sw livestock remain at most, or even an appreciable amount, of lfs's, for 3 wks :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe it's a regional thing. I keep most of my fish for a month on average. This exclused damsels and clowns and cheap stuff, of course.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe it's a regional thing. I keep most of my fish for a month on average. This exclused damsels and clowns and cheap stuff, of course.

wait till you're up and running a few more years, rove-the percentage of customers wanting to purchase fish w/in 48-72 hrs of arrival should go up noticeably (as you get a rep for being a good store.-the quality you demand from the supplier has a direct bearing upon how much, or little, you'll have to invest in term care)

in all of the larger independents i've worked in, customers wanting to take fish home while still in the bag was not at all uncommon-i usually tried to convince folks to do opposite, and many wouldn't-they got fair warning :wink:

heh, i've had customers bicker over a same day arrival, both fishes, and corals :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Less of the cyanide fish reach the consumer then the net collected fish.

No, they over collect with juice to make up for the death, a very simple concept. If your going to use an agent that kills a certain percent of your collections, your going to catch more to get the same amount.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Whats hard to understand? Less of the cyanide fish reach the consumer then the net collected fish. Of every 100 fish 20 are cyanide collected {your numbers} how many of those 20 fish reach the consumer? You have repeatedly supported the idea that these fish are doomed from the exposer. {Liver damage}it takes on average four weeks to collect the fish , export, transship, display and sell the majority of those 20 fish. How many [what percentage} of those cyanide fish ever live long enough to be sold? Even if the fish reaches the LFS. how long does the average fish spend in a display before it is sold? Peter has claimed almost all cyanide collected fish die from the cyanide within three weeks. Half of MO fish spend that long at the LFS! Do you disagree that a cyanide collected fish has less of a chance being sold then a net collected? Do they die more then net collected ?, Do they look worse then net collected after two weeks? If your answer is yes to any of those questions then less then 20% reach the hobbyists.

in the dozen + lfs's i've worked in, i've never seen 50% of the livestock hang around for 3 wks

in fact, i'd estimate that more than 80% remain in an lfs for less than a week

would this be your store you're usin as an example?


i doubt that sales figures at the wholesale level would back up your claim that 50% of sw livestock remain at most, or even an appreciable amount, of lfs's, for 3 wks :wink:

I dont think that on average a LFS sells out of 80% of its fish each week. They dont sell out to bare tanks then order 100% new fish for next Monday. Otherwise the fish room looks 90% empty the day before new fish arrive. If a Store turns over 50% of its fish every week ....and aclimates the new fish a few days......then thats a two week plus cycle for half its livestock. But keep in mind of all the fish species in a store, twenty fish types turn over quickly......but the remaining odd ball fish may set for longer then average bread and butter fish . Lastly just because stores order all the wholesalers fish as fast as they can, does not mean that all of last weeks fish made it to a customers tanks. Cyanide fish die more often in the store then any where else along the line ........Even cyanide fish that are not technically dead , like fish that look thin or dont eat or look sick ......wont end up being purchased by hobbyists.......thats way I said that less then 5% of PURCHASED fish are cyanide fish. Just because 20% of the fish out on the reef are collected with poison ......does not mean an any way that 20% of the fish sold have been exposed to cyanide. When all the factors are considered like DOA DAA and LLS {Looks like sh**} That twenty percent may actually end up around zero percent. That is unless cyanide fish actually are hardier the net collected:wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Less of the cyanide fish reach the consumer then the net collected fish.

No, they over collect with juice to make up for the death, a very simple concept. If your going to use an agent that kills a certain percent of your collections, your going to catch more to get the same amount.

Not sure what that means............Less of the cyanide fish reach the consumer then net collected fish.......that means the twenty percent decreases through the transportation stages and as time passes on the fishes way to the stores and then the hobbyists tanks . Testing showed 20% of the collected ready for export fish to contain cyanide. Thats the starting point. Twenty fish in a box of 100 are cyanide fish.

 

[Anonymous]

Whats hard to understand? Less of the cyanide fish reach the consumer then the net collected fish. Of every 100 fish 20 are cyanide collected {your numbers} how many of those 20 fish reach the consumer? You have repeatedly supported the idea that these fish are doomed from the exposer. {Liver damage}it takes on average four weeks to collect the fish , export, transship, display and sell the majority of those 20 fish. How many [what percentage} of those cyanide fish ever live long enough to be sold? Even if the fish reaches the LFS. how long does the average fish spend in a display before it is sold? Peter has claimed almost all cyanide collected fish die from the cyanide within three weeks. Half of MO fish spend that long at the LFS! Do you disagree that a cyanide collected fish has less of a chance being sold then a net collected? Do they die more then net collected ?, Do they look worse then net collected after two weeks? If your answer is yes to any of those questions then less then 20% reach the hobbyists.

in the dozen + lfs's i've worked in, i've never seen 50% of the livestock hang around for 3 wks

in fact, i'd estimate that more than 80% remain in an lfs for less than a week

would this be your store you're usin as an example?


i doubt that sales figures at the wholesale level would back up your claim that 50% of sw livestock remain at most, or even an appreciable amount, of lfs's, for 3 wks :wink:

I dont think that on average a LFS sells out of 80% of its fish each week. They dont sell out to bare tanks then order 100% new fish for next Monday. Otherwise the fish room looks 90% empty the day before new fish arrive. If a Store turns over 50% of its fish every week ....and aclimates the new fish a few days......then thats a two week plus cycle for half its livestock. But keep in mind of all the fish species in a store, twenty fish types turn over quickly......but the remaining odd ball fish may set for longer then average bread and butter fish . Lastly just because stores order all the wholesalers fish as fast as they can, does not mean that all of last weeks fish made it to a customers tanks. Cyanide fish die more often in the store then any where else along the line ........Even cyanide fish that are not technically dead , like fish that look thin or dont eat or look sick ......wont end up being purchased by hobbyists.......thats way I said that less then 5% of PURCHASED fish are cyanide fish. Just because 20% of the fish out on the reef are collected with poison ......does not mean an any way that 20% of the fish sold have been exposed to cyanide. When all the factors are considered like DOA DAA and LLS {Looks like sh**} That twenty percent may actually end up around zero percent. That is unless cyanide fish actually are hardier the net collected:wink:

I dont think that on average a LFS sells out of 80% of its fish each week. They dont sell out to bare tanks then order 100% new fish for next Monday. Otherwise the fish room looks 90% empty the day before new fish arrive. If a Store turns over 50% of its fish every week ....and aclimates the new fish a few days......then thats a two week plus cycle for half its livestock.

if this is the avg goings on in a typical lfs, then it's no wonder some are so thrilled about the certification process and how it helps track inventory

it's also very troubling both in a business sense, and...

Lastly just because stores order all the wholesalers fish as fast as they can, does not mean that all of last weeks fish made it to a customers tanks. Cyanide fish die more often in the store then any where else along the line

i can't believe you said that....

actually none of what you posted above reflects the reality of almost all the stores i've worked in, and...

it''s been very typical of the places i've worked in to always get VERY low in stock levels before an order arrives, barring the occasional 'slump' period here and there

what are your in store survival rates for livestock that stays in your store for over 3 wks, kalk?

 

[mkirda]

Testing showed 20% of the collected ready for export fish to contain cyanide. Thats the starting point. Twenty fish in a box of 100 are cyanide fish.

Um... Testing showed 25%, Kalk.

Quit making up numbers.