Going to Bali!

[Anonymous]

So why didn't Ferdinand provide good nets to the fisherfolks in Bali long ago? Why it took until last week when they happened to find the "good stuff" in Hawaii during MO. Ferdinand and Steve have accused MAC of doing trainings "without nets" looks like Ferdinand has spent several years in Bali working with fishers 'without nets"

why did america take so long to end WWII? 8O :?

The answer is history.

Because America only got involved in the war when it itself was attacked.

er- try again-america was involved in the war long before it was attacked, there are many other forms of involvement in a war other than fighting it w/one's army on the battlefield, naesco :wink:

'the answer is history'?

methinks you missed the point i was trying to make in my rebuttal to jaime's insinuation that steve, ferdie, et al, were sittin around twiddlin thumbs up until the point of their wonderful efforts to finally get the right type of netting to the right people

it's not only patently false, it's a fairly immature tactic attempting to swing an argument strictly on an emotional basis, and one that's quite insulting to most everyone's intelligence here, including your own

i really wish you would make an attempt to look at the facts, instead of just chiming in w/your broad hyperbole

the fact is that the main focus on true reform was always the netting-no one from the mac camp (no pun intended) realized, saw, or admitted to this

some other folks did, and made it clear to anyone who wasn't too muleheaded in their viewpoint, where the efforts should be directed-they were either ignored, or brushed aside in favor of a PR MACHINE

now, after they've accomplished something truly worthwhile, for anyone to attack them based on the premise of an unnacceptable timeline for the accomplishment, or that all the other efforts going on behind the scenes, now, and in the future, be dropped, for the sake of satisfying the naysayers selfish narrowminded critique, is just plain chutzpah

amda, ferdie, ruwi, all got it right-and the mac camp got it all wrong-the simple facts illustrate this in exemplary fashion

the least you could do is research, even a little bit, the facts as they occured, before you decide upon which horse to bet on :wink:

So why didn't Ferdinand provide good nets to the fisherfolks in Bali long ago? Why it took until last week when they happened to find the "good stuff" in Hawaii during MO. Ferdinand and Steve have accused MAC of doing trainings "without nets" looks like Ferdinand has spent several years in Bali working with fishers 'without nets"

i've heard that turnabout is fair play....

So why didn't jaime provide good nets to the fisherfolks in Bali long ago? ......... looks like jaime has spent several years working with fishers 'without nets" :wink:


i can back any assertions made about jaime w/claims about an existing email, copied verbatim, w/caps, even :lol:

since when does any self respecting individual violate the implied confidentiality of a private correspondence by even threatening to post it publicly?

and does any self respecting individual really expect for anyone to believe the claim of the correspondence even existing? on their word ? after such childish inuendic behavior has been demonstrated by the claimer?

not one of your better decisions, imo, jaime

mebbe i should post some of your private communiques to me, on this bb :wink:

whether you made them or not isn't really relevant, is it? all i need is a keyboard to prove that ya did
8O :wink:

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime
Are you saying that stoping cyanide use in PI is more important than in Indo? Regardless of who exports the most fish, shouldn't both be worked on now?

When I send money to AMDA, I don't care if the nets go to Indo or PI, poor fishermen in both areas need nets. Those that are already trained (have already earned the nets) but lacking nets in either area are more in need than those that aren't yet trained. All will get the needed nets eventually anyway. If $85.USD buyes enough net material for 10 fishermen, then that's 10 more who won't use cyanide, end of story.

According to the DVD I got from Mike, there are roughly 4000 fishermen in PI, and probably only a handfull of them are net trained and fewer MAC certified. How many are in Indo?

You still haven't answered my original question and why would you change your ethics just because it was from Steve?

Sally,

I am not saying that. My response to Mary complements it.

If the DVD you got is informing you that probably a handfull of the 4000 fish collectors in the Philippines have been trained since 1987 I'd suggest to ask for your money back. IMA and Haribon trained over 1,800 collectors to use nets instead of cyanide. As part of the programs implemented by those organizations other important aspects were addressed as for example :

Community organizing
Alternative livelihoods
Environmental education
Water quality and handling and holding techniques

I am sure you are aware that the problem in the Philippines is more than just giving them nets. Netting is only one piece of the puzzle. I am sure you have gotten enough information about the complete ordeal the fish suffer once collected. Also about mortality rates at community level etc.

Your last question indicates me that you are new around here. I would rather to answer that question by PM. Is that OK?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike, how do you know that is a couple of months?
_________________
Regards

Jaime

Back to the conspiracy theorys again Jaime? Just a few days ago you were sing praises of Ferdie, but now your back to your old self. Who cares where Ferdie spends his time, he's tackling a vast problem. What are your CURRENTLY doing to help, other then trying to discreddit the very people who are currently doing something?

You guys have been discrediting every single move MAC has been doing in the last years.

Currently doing to help? avoiding fish I suspect are cyanide caught !

 

[Jaime Baquero]

So why didn't Ferdinand provide good nets to the fisherfolks in Bali long ago? Why it took until last week when they happened to find the "good stuff" in Hawaii during MO. Ferdinand and Steve have accused MAC of doing trainings "without nets" looks like Ferdinand has spent several years in Bali working with fishers 'without nets"

why did america take so long to end WWII? 8O :?

The answer is history.

Because America only got involved in the war when it itself was attacked.

er- try again-america was involved in the war long before it was attacked, there are many other forms of involvement in a war other than fighting it w/one's army on the battlefield, naesco :wink:

'the answer is history'?

methinks you missed the point i was trying to make in my rebuttal to jaime's insinuation that steve, ferdie, et al, were sittin around twiddlin thumbs up until the point of their wonderful efforts to finally get the right type of netting to the right people

it's not only patently false, it's a fairly immature tactic attempting to swing an argument strictly on an emotional basis, and one that's quite insulting to most everyone's intelligence here, including your own

i really wish you would make an attempt to look at the facts, instead of just chiming in w/your broad hyperbole

the fact is that the main focus on true reform was always the netting-no one from the mac camp (no pun intended) realized, saw, or admitted to this

some other folks did, and made it clear to anyone who wasn't too muleheaded in their viewpoint, where the efforts should be directed-they were either ignored, or brushed aside in favor of a PR MACHINE

now, after they've accomplished something truly worthwhile, for anyone to attack them based on the premise of an unnacceptable timeline for the accomplishment, or that all the other efforts going on behind the scenes, now, and in the future, be dropped, for the sake of satisfying the naysayers selfish narrowminded critique, is just plain chutzpah

amda, ferdie, ruwi, all got it right-and the mac camp got it all wrong-the simple facts illustrate this in exemplary fashion

the least you could do is research, even a little bit, the facts as they occured, before you decide upon which horse to bet on :wink:

So why didn't Ferdinand provide good nets to the fisherfolks in Bali long ago? Why it took until last week when they happened to find the "good stuff" in Hawaii during MO. Ferdinand and Steve have accused MAC of doing trainings "without nets" looks like Ferdinand has spent several years in Bali working with fishers 'without nets"

i've heard that turnabout is fair play....

So why didn't jaime provide good nets to the fisherfolks in Bali long ago? ......... looks like jaime has spent several years working with fishers 'without nets" :wink:


i can back any assertions made about jaime w/claims about an existing email, copied verbatim, w/caps, even :lol:

since when does any self respecting individual violate the implied confidentiality of a private correspondence by even threatening to post it publicly?

and does any self respecting individual really expect for anyone to believe the claim of the correspondence even existing? on their word ? after such childish inuendic behavior has been demonstrated by the claimer?

not one of your better decisions, imo, jaime

mebbe i should post some of your private communiques to me, on this bb :wink:

whether you made them or not isn't really relevant, is it? all i need is a keyboard to prove that ya did
8O :wink:

Vitz,


Jaime didn't provide the lately found "good stuff" because it didn't exist.

To avoid the problem of confidienciality. Please S. Robinson DO NOT send me any private e-mails I do not want them. If you want to say something please do it in this forum and only here.

Vitz, knowing in what side you are I wouldn't dare to send you a PM. :lol:

 

[hdtran]

Jaime,

Of the 1800 or so trained collectors, how many have sufficient netting, plus the other necessary support structure (holding, feeding, transport, etc.)?

Thanks,

Hy (also new around here, and just a hobbyist)

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Yes, it was a PM from Steve, doens't matter, its not a "smoking gun" and not the first time Jaime has posted others private messages. How cares?

When netting was bought, Bali got some. The training Ferdie did in Bali wasn't done thru any groups, I think he funded it himself, privately. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. Hopefully Ferdie will be able to get to a computer and reply himself.

Indo exports a ton of fish Jaime, just not the same amount of PI. They are in fact, in the top 3 MO exporters, if not top 2.

I can't believe your still trying to discreddit net training that has stuck. The people in Bali who made the committment would be so saddenned by you lessoning their achievement. The have purcivered thru many hardships to get to where they are now. They have put up with major attempts by the dirty exporters trying to shut them down. They're divers have been offerred cash to sell their catch on the beach to the dirty exporters, bypassing the co-op. The leader, Ruwi, has had his life threatend and been bribed more then I care to shake a stick at. He and them are true believers in the anti cyanide movement. For you to belittle they're achievement only puts your own convictions into question.

Why your boss sent me that e-mail?

I am not discrediting what people are trying to do to tackle the cyanide problem in Indonesia. I just think that your 'work plan" is a bit desorgainized that's all.

 

[Anonymous]

Jaime didn't provide the lately found "good stuff" because it didn't exist.

False, it did exist, the .17 was chosen over the thicker stuff. I have 15 year old samples from the very company (not in business) that Jaime posted the info from. Commercial collectors have used the thicker stuff for well over 20 years. The NGO's have opted to use the thinner stuff because it was cheaper, thus protecting the budget for other uses (ie. salaries) or becuase they did not know better.

Currently doing to help? avoiding fish I suspect are cyanide caught !

So your helping on the hobbyist level? Avoidance doesn't tackle any problem. Your actually giving money to the dopers if the wholesaler buys doped fish (even though you don't).

Your right, I've attacked every false move MAC has made. They had some/have some fatal flaws that need dire attention. In the begginning, I felt MAC could do some good, but as I learned more about them, the less I thought they could help. Howard Latin is fully correct in his assessment of MAC, thru and thru.

 

[Anonymous]

Why your boss sent me that e-mail?

I am not discrediting what people are trying to do to tackle the cyanide problem in Indonesia. I just think that your 'work plan" is a bit desorgainized that's all.
_________________
Regards

Jaime

I don't know why anyone would "sent" you any email, you'd just post it anyways.

Your posts speak for themselves :wink:

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime,

Of the 1800 or so trained collectors, how many have sufficient netting, plus the other necessary support structure (holding, feeding, transport, etc.)?

Thanks,

Hy (also new around here, and just a hobbyist)

Hy,

There are nets in the Philippines and collectors have been using them for decades, exporters are the ones supplying nets to collectors. I do not know if is the "good stuff" found last week in Hawaii, I doubt it. Collectors in the Philippines are the main suppliers of ornamental fish, according to one "expert importer" the numbers are considerable. They were collecting all those fish with regular nets, before the "good stuff" got from Hawaii last week.

Hy, at community level the situation is very bad they do have almost nothing. In many communities fish are kept in plastic bags for days, without water changes. Collectors keep more than one fish per bag, I saw cases of 12 lionfish in a bag and over 50 domino damsels in a bag. The water was that cloudy that I couldn't see the fish. They do not have transport and the fish are not fed while at the community.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime didn't provide the lately found "good stuff" because it didn't exist.

False, it did exist, the .17 was chosen over the thicker stuff. I have 15 year old samples from the very company (not in business) that Jaime posted the info from. Commercial collectors have used the thicker stuff for well over 20 years. The NGO's have opted to use the thinner stuff because it was cheaper, thus protecting the budget for other uses (ie. salaries) or becuase they did not know better.

Currently doing to help? avoiding fish I suspect are cyanide caught !

So your helping on the hobbyist level? Avoidance doesn't tackle any problem. Your actually giving money to the dopers if the wholesaler buys doped fish (even though you don't).

Your right, I've attacked every false move MAC has made. They had some/have some fatal flaws that need dire attention. In the begginning, I felt MAC could do some good, but as I learned more about them, the less I thought they could help. Howard Latin is fully correct in his assessment of MAC, thru and thru.

I am confuse . Someone said that the "good stuff" was found only last week in Hawaii. If you knew that for 15 years, I think you are very selfish keeping it for yourself. GreshanmH, you are a bad boy!

 

[clarionreef]

Geez,
I sent the pm to warn him.
He was going 'on and on' like he and Ferdie were soul-mates and like minded thinkers. By this 'fascile' linking w/ Ferdie he demeaned Ferdie by association.
Thats whyI let him know that Ferdie [EASI] and I [ AMDA] as well as Peter [ IMA ] and Mike King [ CORL] and Ruwi [Telapak] were all working on things together.
Since we weren't tourists, we didn't stay at a fancy hotel but we did stay where we could talk at length together instead of brief, planned meetings.
Thats all. I won't tip him off in the future.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Jaime
You may pm me, I would like to hear your side of the story. For that matter, any of the different factions can, I came here looking for information.

The DVD did not state only a handful of PI fishermen were net trained, that was my assumption.

Admitedly, I am playing catch-up. I am, after all, just a hobbist.

Just for future reference: I am ADHD, slightly dyslexic and probably half brain dead. I do get my facts mixed from time to time, but will also admit when I do or I'm wrong. I have been known to put my foot in my mouth, which is a major personality flaw.

Jaime, please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I can understand you have a dislike for Steve. Fine and dandy. Just don't let that cloud your judgement on what he is capable of doing.

That being said, I think actions (or the lack there of) speak louder than words. I knew before I asked that it was a pm and more than likely, Steve didn't care if it was posted or not. That wasn't the point. It did however show the character of the poster.

If the pot is going to call the kettle black, then pot had better make sure that it isn't.

 

[hdtran]

Hy,

There are nets in the Philippines and collectors have been using them for decades, exporters are the ones supplying nets to collectors. I do not know if is the "good stuff" found last week in Hawaii, I doubt it. Collectors in the Philippines are the main suppliers of ornamental fish, according to one "expert importer" the numbers are considerable. They were collecting all those fish with regular nets, before the "good stuff" got from Hawaii last week.

Hy, at community level the situation is very bad they do have almost nothing. In many communities fish are kept in plastic bags for days, without water changes. Collectors keep more than one fish per bag, I saw cases of 12 lionfish in a bag and over 50 domino damsels in a bag. The water was that cloudy that I couldn't see the fish. They do not have transport and the fish are not fed while at the community.

Thanks for the info, Jaime.

So, the collectors receive the nets (or other supplies) from the exporters? They do not get paid enough to obtain their "tools" themselves?

At some point, the fish get re-bagged. Is it the exporters who do that? Or does that happen after the fish land in LA? I thought that when the fish landed in the US, they were generally one fish to a bag. I'm probably not quite as ADHD as Sally (knowse), but I do have a pretty short attention span.

If I, as an individual, make a small contribution to either a net or a jar fund, does that help, or hurt?

Thanks!

Hy

 

[mkirda]

Mike, how do you know that is a couple of months?

I called his mother to verify.

Seriously.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

So, the collectors receive the nets (or other supplies) from the exporters? They do not get paid enough to obtain their "tools" themselves?

At some point, the fish get re-bagged. Is it the exporters who do that? Or does that happen after the fish land in LA? I thought that when the fish landed in the US, they were generally one fish to a bag. I'm probably not quite as ADHD as Sally (knowse), but I do have a pretty short attention span.

If I, as an individual, make a small contribution to either a net or a jar fund, does that help, or hurt?

Thanks!

Hy

Hy,

I'd like to think that those days are behind us, but they are likely not.

Exporters will sell netting. The fishermen who travel to Manila know they can also get it at places like the Divisoria. It isn't like they can't buy the mediocre stuff anywhere, or strictly through their exporters.

While I would like to see the commercial-quality netting available even through an exporter, think of how expensive it would have to be. You are talking about having to put up 15K, then sell it piecemeal for the next 5 to 10 years. This is at a large cost in terms of space. Or you'd have to import a smaller amount at retail prices, then sell it at a much greater price. Either way, it gets to be quite expensive when you make, on average, around $600 per year.

The bagging issue: If the fish are bagged at origin, they are screened at an export facility, then held a bit before export. They are then bagged for shipment. For collectors, bags are not cheap, and are reused until they are punctured.

And finally, it helps.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Geez,
I sent the pm to warn him.
He was going 'on and on' like he and Ferdie were soul-mates and like minded thinkers. By this 'fascile' linking w/ Ferdie he demeaned Ferdie by association.
Thats whyI let him know that Ferdie [EASI] and I [ AMDA] as well as Peter [ IMA ] and Mike King [ CORL] and Ruwi [Telapak] were all working on things together.
Since we weren't tourists, we didn't stay at a fancy hotel but we did stay where we could talk at length together instead of brief, planned meetings.
Thats all. I won't tip him off in the future.
Steve

Finally I got a good news from that end!

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mike, how do you know that is a couple of months?

I called his mother to verify.

Seriously.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Do you think Ferdinand would like to see this kind of garbage?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Hy,

There are nets in the Philippines and collectors have been using them for decades, exporters are the ones supplying nets to collectors. I do not know if is the "good stuff" found last week in Hawaii, I doubt it. Collectors in the Philippines are the main suppliers of ornamental fish, according to one "expert importer" the numbers are considerable. They were collecting all those fish with regular nets, before the "good stuff" got from Hawaii last week.

Hy, at community level the situation is very bad they do have almost nothing. In many communities fish are kept in plastic bags for days, without water changes. Collectors keep more than one fish per bag, I saw cases of 12 lionfish in a bag and over 50 domino damsels in a bag. The water was that cloudy that I couldn't see the fish. They do not have transport and the fish are not fed while at the community.

Thanks for the info, Jaime.

So, the collectors receive the nets (or other supplies) from the exporters? They do not get paid enough to obtain their "tools" themselves?

At some point, the fish get re-bagged. Is it the exporters who do that? Or does that happen after the fish land in LA? I thought that when the fish landed in the US, they were generally one fish to a bag. I'm probably not quite as ADHD as Sally (knowse), but I do have a pretty short attention span.

If I, as an individual, make a small contribution to either a net or a jar fund, does that help, or hurt?

Thanks!

Hy

My pleasure Hy,

Exporters sell the nets to collectors and collectors sell their fishes to theexporter. Exporters control their collectors by providing what they need even money during the low season. Collectors do not get paid enough for their work, this is why collectors do not make extra efforts to keep fish under better conditions.

The fish ordeal is at community level. The conditions at exporter and importer facilities are in some cases a bit "better." When fish are exported to the U.S. or Canada they come in separate bags.

Those contributions do help. Just make sure that the organization you are supporting has a concrete plan and provide to you with the results of your contribution.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime
You may pm me, I would like to hear your side of the story. For that matter, any of the different factions can, I came here looking for information.

The DVD did not state only a handful of PI fishermen were net trained, that was my assumption.

Admitedly, I am playing catch-up. I am, after all, just a hobbist.

Just for future reference: I am ADHD, slightly dyslexic and probably half brain dead. I do get my facts mixed from time to time, but will also admit when I do or I'm wrong. I have been known to put my foot in my mouth, which is a major personality flaw.

Jaime, please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I can understand you have a dislike for Steve. Fine and dandy. Just don't let that cloud your judgement on what he is capable of doing.

That being said, I think actions (or the lack there of) speak louder than words. I knew before I asked that it was a pm and more than likely, Steve didn't care if it was posted or not. That wasn't the point. It did however show the character of the poster.

If the pot is going to call the kettle black, then pot had better make sure that it isn't.

Sally,

I respect your opinion. Thanks for taking the time to write this and the other messages. Also thanks for the advice.

Sincerely, Jaime

 

[MaryHM]

The problem is that exactly the same words were said as part of your " "work plan for the Philippines" . You did something good providing nets and some t shirts to the collectors, Sincerely, I hope the nets were the "good stuff" the boys found last week in Hawai. What about the false hope you guys were giving to collectors in the Philippines telling them things you can not deliver or that will take forever to get there

My life is very active and have many projects in front of me. I enjoy every single minute of it. You have found fault in every single thing MAC is trying to do. What about your life is meaningless?

****YAWN****

The nets I sent were not the nets that Steve found in Hawaii. Want to know why?? BECAUSE I SENT HAND NETS, JAIME. NOT BARRIER NETS. THEY ARE DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW. And the HAND NETS I sent were of the best quality available to us. Nets recommended by Steve and Ferdinand.

Exactly what "false hope" did I give to any collectors in the Philippines? Some of the (the trained ones in need of it) received some of the netting I sent over. I never said I was going to blanket the entire Philippines with hand netting. No promises were ever made to any collectors. Get your facts straight before you make some stupid allegation.

Lastly, MAC. I have not found fault in every single thing MAC has tried to do. Just the WRONG ones. And unfortunately the wrong outweighs the right by quite a bit. See Jaime, I LIVE this industry every single day of my life. It's not some luxury hobby I pursue or some cause that I spend my spare time arguing about. This issue IS my life- not just some little part of it. You ask me what about my life is meaningless...I have an answer. A few acutally:

1. The time wasted trying to promote and help MAC- years wasted.
2. The time wasted trying to convince people that net caught is the way to go, when very very few of them care.
3. The time wasted arguing with people like you who are armchair quarterbacks.