We have a choice here.

[mkirda]

Rehash, reheat and repeat.

Or...

Form some sort of rational consensus, and move forward.

My last suggestion (which I had honestly forgotten about until Vitz resurrected the thread) went pretty well.
I'd like to propose that we choose what's behind Door #2.

The question becomes what is it that we can form a consensus on, and how can we move forward from there?

I think supplying barrier netting is a good goal, as is supplying funds for jars.

Other ideas are welcome and encouraged.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

Although I agree that there is no point in the rehash reheat repeat which has been going on here lately, you need to look at the purpose of the forum.
If it is to raise funds to buy nets and jars so be it.

It is is to fundamentally reform what is happening in industry today it is another thing.

What say ye all?

 

[mkirda]

It is is to fundamentally reform what is happening in industry today it is another thing.

What say ye all?

It isn't another thing, it is the thing.
Fundamental reform does not, will not, can not
start with you and I, even if we do try to make intelligent choices and guide others.

It must start where the fish come from.

Education on this end will help, but not all that much IMO.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Right Mike,
It starts in the water...out from a village.
How can you affect the process from afar? I wonder how anyone imagines that process could work.
It starts when a change is welcomed by fisherman. How can you affect that process from afar?
The fisherman need jars, netting, dive gear, etc.
Working with them and helping to improve things is not just nice and social...but one way you can get inside to understand what will make them change.
If this is not your cup of tea...then support can be given to those it is.

I don't like changing the oil in my car.
Giving speeches about the positive things acrued from car maintanence is fine... but you really have to change the oil [ or have someone else do it] at some point.

Someones gotta get wet, dirty, greasy or what have you...to really get work done. There is a limit to paperwork, office work and chat.
Thats for preparation but at sometime things have to actually get implemented. The worth of a policy is in fact...in its implementation. Not in its recitation.

If providing Jars and the right nets are a small thing...then so is growing food a small thing and catching fish a small thing. In fact, during my years in villages from Mexico to Bali, I saw people doing 'small things' everywhere...everyday.

If we're so smart, then we should be smart enough to figure out how theraputic and essential this primary immersion is to moving forward.
This stuff is not a foreign notion...it is wanted by the fisherman.
Steve

 

[hdtran]

Steve,

Is the Amda net fund a net only, or net-and-jar?

Thanks,

Hy

 

[clarionreef]

hI hY,
Nets...only nets and material to rig them.
Jars are a project started by the Chicago Marine Aq. Soc. at the request of Ferdie on behalf of fisherman hes working with.
Breaking thru the impasse on netting is our focus at the moment.
Steve

 

[hdtran]

Steve,

I guess you get to fight with Mike: If I make a small contribution, should it go to Amda for nets, CMAS for jars, or 50/50?

Hy

 

[clarionreef]

But thats your own private decision my son.
I have an obvious conflict of interest and cannot render an objective opinion. :roll:
The last thing a collector asked me for though was for nets.
Steve
PS.
Its a jar FUND as jars are available in Manila and Indo. The collectors just need money to buy them.

 

[mkirda]

Steve,

I guess you get to fight with Mike: If I make a small contribution, should it go to Amda for nets, CMAS for jars, or 50/50?

Hy

Hy,

It is entirely up to you.
Either one is worthy, IMO.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[naesco]

It is is to fundamentally reform what is happening in industry today it is another thing.

What say ye all?

It isn't another thing, it is the thing.
Fundamental reform does not, will not, can not
start with you and I, even if we do try to make intelligent choices and guide others.

It must start where the fish come from.

Education on this end will help, but not all that much IMO.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

First, if everyone abandons the political dogma.
Second, if a stateside, ban, moratorium, a stateside CDT or industry sanctioned drop dead timeline is mandated
Are not the Philippine and Indonesia industry players and their governments forced to deal in a major way with catchment education, holding environments, the USL, and the CDT?

Than you look at major international funding for all of these worthwhile endeavours.

Greenpeace had a major effect on the whale and seal harvests and the old growth forest controversy.
When Europeans stopped buying British Columbia lumber things started changing for the better.

 

[hdtran]

Gee, do you guys have to be *SO* reasonable? I thought I could get another foodfight started!

It'll go to the net fund, as that's what I pledged. (As soon as my publisher sends me a check).

Steve, you need to remind the AMDA webmaster to post a link with the address & info at the AMDA home page. I know I can retrieve it by just looking it up here, but sometimes, I get lazy.

Hy

 

[Anonymous]

Although I agree that there is no point in the rehash reheat repeat which has been going on here lately, you need to look at the purpose of the forum.
If it is to raise funds to buy nets and jars so be it.

It is is to fundamentally reform what is happening in industry today it is another thing.

What say ye all?

i say if ya haven't yet understood that nets and jars are 2 of the most crucial keys for any reform process, since they are the basic tools required to keep one of the 1st dominoes in the supply chain standing, that beneficially affects both us, and the fisherman, then ya got yer skrewz loose, big time


what purpose do you think this forum serves, naesco?

 

[Anonymous]

i think one thing that should be done is counter balance the consumer side of the equation getting most of the effort, as mac seems to be focusing on, by certifying everybody before they even have a clean varied source of fish for the MO biz, and apparently withdrawing completely from at least one of the major platforms they promised to tackle, announced they'd finish, and never did, like the cdt-though i think the cdt should be implemented stateside first-far better chance of it being properly done, if the time frame of handling/shipping issues get solved

 

[Anonymous]

proper collection equipment and training always come 1st, though

 

[jamesw]

Mike,

I've noticed that even though people here SAY they want to work together on projects, ultimately, they can not have a "meeting of the minds."

So everyone ends up doing their own thing. Not to sound crass, but "if you can't agree, start your own not-for-profit organization" seems to me what is happening.

Which is fine - if that's what the forum members want to do. When I went to Berkeley, none of the "looney activists" could work together either - so we ended up with 6 different groups trying to get a bike lane on the Bay Bridge - when probably only one was needed. But that's life - are 6 groups better than 1 big one? Who knows.

I think it would be great for someone to put together a list of the various organizations in the Aquarium Reform arena and which things they are asking for money for.

For example, we have AMDA now asking for money for a couple of things, we have had Mary's net drive, CORL, MAC, EASI, etc. All of them are trying to accomplish goals and are asking for support.

It would be nice to have a concise list of who is doing what, why, and what they are asking for.

That would be a great first step, IMO.

Cheers
James

 

[mkirda]

I think it would be great for someone to put together a list of the various organizations in the Aquarium Reform arena and which things they are asking for money for.

For example, we have AMDA now asking for money for a couple of things, we have had Mary's net drive, CORL, MAC, EASI, etc. All of them are trying to accomplish goals and are asking for support.

It would be nice to have a concise list of who is doing what, why, and what they are asking for.

That would be a great first step, IMO.

Cheers
James

Hi, James.

Nice thought. You know that I tried doing that before.
After taking hits on all sides, I lost interest in heading that project.

Maybe someone else would be willing to take a stab at it.
With a different and positive focus on what each one is trying to do and how people can contribute, maybe it will not get shot down.
I can easily write a blurb on the CMAS Jar fund.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[MaryHM]

Well, I can speak for MARY (Marine Aquarists Reform Yearners).

Please do not lump me in with a bunch of NGO's. I'm not an NGO. I'm just one person who with the help of many, many others actually put forth a single goal and accomplished it. But if you want to add me to your concise list, here are the answers to your questions:

1. Who is doing what? Mary Middlebrook along with ReefCentral, Mike Kirda, and many concerned hobbyists and industry professionals set a goal to raise enough money to ship 2.5 miles worth of hand netting material to Ferdinand Cruz for him to distribute in the Philippines and Indonesia as necessary.

2. Why? Uh, because there wasn't any good netting there despite the presence of numerous NGO's over the years.

3. What are we asking for? Nothing. The goal was set and met and finalized within just a few months last year. I don't need any grants and don't want any recognition by large NGOs. I'm done with my contribution. The only thing I'd ask for is to see some serious forward movement from any of these other organizations attempting to throw their hat in the reform ring.

 

[Anonymous]

I like James' idea, but not nessasarily as the first step.

1. Funding for Training, Nets, Jars and Bags (which hasn't been addressed yet)

2. Funding and training for Holding and Transportion Issues

After these two are implemented

3. Stateside CDT (to include all importers and drop shippers {note: does not include the rest of the world and that needs to be addressed also}), which should include sever penalties to ANY exporter caught sending tainted fish.

Some where along the line a challenge should be made to hobbiest to pledge 5-10% of total fish purchases to be donated to any of said groups from James's idea for a given length of time. After which, each group must make public all records for those said funds.

Hy, send CMAS $20. That's 30 jars if I remember right and you won't feel so confllicted. :wink:

 

[hdtran]

knowse writes

Hy, send CMAS $20. That's 30 jars if I remember right and you won't feel so confllicted.

OK, next book check goes to CMAS

 

[Anonymous]

trying to get a bike lane on the Bay Bridge

:lol: :lol: :lol: Ha, that would only happen if the Bay Bridge was rebuilt, oh wait, thats happening. I think it will accomodate both foot and bike traffic.