MAC's spokestoken...

[Anonymous]

My apologies Mitch. And to clarify my own point, I'm by no means holding MAC in high regard just because I think highly of one person who may (or may not) be working for them..

In fact, I appreciate hearing from the watchdogs if for no other reason than to bring me more enlightenment to where the organization is at in its reported agenda. I just think that the watchdogs could best serve their own agendas if they shot from a less emotionally charged view. (It seems to lend more credibility to the writer in at least my less-informed mind that way..)

And Mary, my apologies if I ruffled your feathers with the "emotional" thing. I don't mean it as a stab, I can undestand completely about getting emotional over a subject that affects your livelihood. (Heck, a good portion of why I voted for Gore was that he stands behind a lot of technology-related issues... - My livelihood...)

By no means do I want to throttle the conversation here, I'm just asking the watchdogs to take a breath and shoot from an angle that I (the less-informed consumer) can more easily understand...

In that vein, can someone please clarify to me what the clamor is over MAC supposedly not knowing what kind of netting to use or where to obtain it? Seems to me that if it's being used in Hawaii there should be NO problem in finding that out and therefore they certainly SHOULD already know..... :?

 

[MaryHM]

Grateful,

I'm not upset or ruffled over anything you've said. It's nice to see people talking and curious about this subject again. Please continue!

[q]By no means do I want to throttle the conversation here, I'm just asking the watchdogs to take a breath and shoot from an angle that I (the less-informed consumer) can more easily understand... [/q]

I've done just that in my last few posts directed at MAC. Extremely simple, easy to understand questions asked in a very benign way. Each time I have been personally attacked in a vindictive manner by MAC supporters. In one post, Mr. John Brandt attacked me so severely and without cause that many normally non-posters in this forum felt the need to speak up. Eventually he deleted his attack. So any manner in which I post a question is met with silence or an attack. And many others have emailed MAC privately and received no answer at all. Mr. Brandt likes to claim that I don't get answers because it is me asking the question, but that argument has been blown out of the water. MAC doesn't want to answer the questions- no matter who they come from, how or where they are asked. Try emailing them about cyanide testing and see if you get a reply. If you do, let me know.

In that vein, can someone please clarify to me what the clamor is over MAC supposedly not knowing what kind of netting to use or where to obtain it?

MAC is the biggest organization to ever try to reform the industry. If they claim they didn't know what kind of netting to use or where to get it, it would either be a flat out lie or because of an appalling lack of research. It is my feeling that MAC never intended to try to provide netting. The fund headed up by myself and Reef Central provided the largest amount of netting to date that has ever been shipped to the Philippines for the express purpose of supplying trained divers. Why did it have to come from us? MAC has had millions of dollars to solve this problem- couldn't they have taken a measly $6000 and bought the netting???

 

[clarionreef]

What Mary just said...
about the claim to address the reformation of the trade without any working knowledge of the netting, net training and the importance of it to the resolution of the problem...is stunning.
To try and pull this off without proper attention to the root of it all...to the field work, to the diver training smacks of something sinister...or extremely incompetent. Either way, you gotta find more sincere people to work with.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I've done just that in my last few posts directed at MAC. Extremely simple, easy to understand questions asked in a very benign way. Each time I have been personally attacked in a vindictive manner by MAC supporters. In one post, Mr. John Brandt attacked me so severely and without cause that many normally non-posters in this forum felt the need to speak up.

Yes, I recall quite a bit of heat around the issue some time ago... I don't recall the details, but that was part of the reason I retreated into the depths of the Sump to waste away the days... :?

On the netting, it sounds like you don't know for sure what MAC's stance is/was on the issue. - I agree, it would be good for them to supply it, but not being privy to their internal workings, I don't hold it against them for not. I can only applaud you and everyone else who did... Hopefully it is being put to good use, but from the sounds of it, it's all for naught so far.. (Is that right? - Much of the PI is still mostly cyanide correct?)

 

[MaryHM]

Grateful,

If an organization is based around getting properly collected fish into the industry, then wouldn't nets be the number 1 priority?? How can you use the "MAC will stop cyanide use" tagline without providing the only thing that can possibly replace cyanide- NETS??? Do a search for "cyanide" and "Marine Aquarium Council" on google. See how many sites come up. Hundreds. That is because MAC has used the cyanide issue to push their program. Seems to reason that they should also provide the extremely cheap nets that are necessary as well.

As far as our netting fund being "for naught so far", you need to put it into perspective. Did you think that I would send over miles of netting and WA-LA! problem solved?? That's not possible. That's like me sending a bunch of bullets to a country that needs to defend itself against a war lord, and saying the problem is solved. First of all, they'd need guns to put their bullets in. In this analogy, the guns are trainings. Collectors are not born with the instinct to catch fish with nets. They must be trained. Those trainings are occurring right now, and as collectors are trained they receive nets. You can't train literally 10's of thousands of collectors in Indonesia and the Philippines in a few months. The netting has been over there for less than 6 months. You have to give it time before you say it is for naught. Remember, there's basically ONE SINGLE MAN there on a full time basis trying to do the trainings. It's going to take a while. But at least it's progress in the right direction- not wheel spinning like MAC is doing.

 

[Anonymous]

But does it make sense to have nets just sitting around waiting for who knows how long for divers to finally start putting them to use?? What if they get caught in a fire or some other event that ruins them? - Are they insured?

I expect that it's not simply an issue of training as well. - I'm fairly certain theres quite a bit of politics that need to be addressed too. Training net divers is one thing, putting enforcement policies/procedures in place is a whole other ball of wax.

Imagine if a Keys diver gets found using cyanide.. He's probably gonna land in some pretty deep doo eh? (Quite possibly jail/prison..?) - That's because OUR govt takes an interest.. Obviously the PI govt hasn't taken an interest yet.. (Yet.. - But hopefully they will before one of their biggest resources is decimated.)

Now, I know this is more like a grass-roots effort really, this is an industry trying to police itself BEFORE the government(s) step in.. - And correct me if I'm wrong here too - but you have to stop and think about how many Fast-Buck Eddies there are out there who don't give a rip about anything except the almighty dollar.. Then about all the broke fishermen trying to support their families who Fast Eddie can take advantage of. Then the corrupt official who likes the way Fast Eddie greases his pocket....

That's why I just don't get the expectations of immediate change. And why I'm sympathetic to an organization which has an immense hurdle to overcome (spanning how many borders?)

Seriously, I applaud your desire to see a healthy, sustainable practice put in place. It's just what focus you've taken with it that I have issue with.... What other organization out there is close to making an impact and achieving results? Don't you think your efforts and abilities would be better used in building rather than blasting? (Trust me, I've learned to swallow pride too, dig around in the Sump and you'll see how I've grated the operators here pretty good.. - but then I also turned around after and offered assistance in repairing ills..)

Norm

 

[mkirda]

On the netting, it sounds like you don't know for sure what MAC's stance is/was on the issue. - I agree, it would be good for them to supply it, but not being privy to their internal workings, I don't hold it against them for not. I can only applaud you and everyone else who did... Hopefully it is being put to good use, but from the sounds of it, it's all for naught so far.. (Is that right? - Much of the PI is still mostly cyanide correct?)

Grateful,

The netting that was sent was not available in the Philippines at all.
You couldn't buy it even if you wanted to.

Without stealing Mary's thunder, the netting is being distributed to various areas across the Philippines. New netting techniques were developed using it, so it is not just being used for hand netting either. This is actually major news. Additionally, I understand some of it was distributed to a village in Bali, so things are moving along nicely. Ferdinand and EASI don't have a PR person, so these small achievements have not been put out there. I know that Mary will update her page soon with all of the details and a lot of new pictures.

As far as much of the Philippines still being cyanide-caught, the answer is yes. That is still true. However, net-caught suppliers and supplies are being developed and these fish are available in the US now.

I would also have to push something- Ferdinand is a field trainer and the areas he is working with are looking at doing something far more comprehensive than training fishermen with nets then leaving. Everyone gets involved from the local government down to the fishermen's family. Sea Watchmen are deputized to watch over the reef and have arrest powers. No-take areas are set up. And this is only the surface. The easiest part is training the fisherman... The hard part is getting everyone else on-board.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Seriously, I applaud your desire to see a healthy, sustainable practice put in place. It's just what focus you've taken with it that I have issue with.... What other organization out there is close to making an impact and achieving results? Don't you think your efforts and abilities would be better used in building rather than blasting? (Trust me, I've learned to swallow pride too, dig around in the Sump and you'll see how I've grated the operators here pretty good.. - but then I also turned around after and offered assistance in repairing ills..)

Norm

Norm,

MAC is not the only game in town. Their approach may not be the best one.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the clarification Mike..

The hard part is getting everyone else on-board.

That's a much cleaner, nicer way of saying what I was trying to spit out..

Thanks again,
Norm

 

[jamesw]

Yes, of course MAC has official spokespeople. If you call their office, you too can talk to one. It's a free call if you have nation wide roaming.

But I think MAC has made a conscious decision not to post here and I think it is a good decision on their part.

Mike said:

I think that MAC feels that many of us are in that extreme zone, and understanding that they cannot satisfy us, they ignore us.

And I agree with him on this one. We HONESTLY TRIED for a while to get MAC involved here, in many ways, but ultimately, I think it would be like showing up at a public transportation town hall meeting at UC Berkeley. No matter what you say, you will be wrong in somebody's eyes. And the people that disagree with you have a lot more free time on their hands and a LOT louder voice. So why bother? Focus your efforts somewhere else.

That's my opinion at least.

Cheers
James

 

[clarionreef]

James,
Dead wrong you are!
Some of us do this for a living and its not a silly game.
Chit chat on the net may be what fills the empty lives of some but the 'sell-out' of the reform movement to money grubbing phoneys masquerading as our spokesman have hurt us, the reefs and the village fisherman.
Your need to hide the non aquarium people who have ruined MAC and its mission are understandable. An open healthy debate is in order. Not justifications for cowardice.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Imagine if a Keys diver gets found using cyanide.. He's probably gonna land in some pretty deep doo eh? (Quite possibly jail/prison..?) - That's because OUR govt takes an interest..

Divers in the Keys routinely use quinaldine to catch fish. Our government doesn't really seem to care. So that's not a great analogy...

Everything else you stated, Mike Kirda pretty much summed up, so I won't bother repeating myself.

James,

How do you explain the fact that MAC refuses to answer emails about the tough questions?? And I'm not counting my own emails to them- but the emails of many others who have never blasted MAC publicly. Dying to hear your answer, James.

 

[Anonymous]

I think they made a conscious decision to no longer post in this forum because they just thought it would be easier.

In private, MAC members have addressed this topic with me. Bohol is an area where the reefs are in rough shape. They feel that getting a management plan in place in areas where the reefs are in rough shape is a good thing.

Sure they didn't want that area because it was "easier", being that Bohol had all ready been trained in the 80's and has many more divers whom are skilled at net collecting then most areas in PI? Plus, its sure a lot eaiser to get a depleted zone on your side as the hardcore cyaniders have all ready moved on and the area has nothing to hide any longer. At a dinner at MANCA this year, a MAC employee told me they pushed an area (Zambales) because it (was easier) was closer to Manilia (you can go there and back in a day) where the funders land/come from. The area wasn't certified because it needed it or they wanted to show they can manage a reef in rough shape, it was certified to aquire more cash for MAC. Funny thing is, that area had been trained in the 80's as well, and not much work was needed to certify it (just a little filling in of blanks on MAC's MPA template and gather some previously trained divers - presto, a depleted area trained and certified by MAC as being sustainable and cyanide free).

 

[clarionreef]

Mike and Mary,
I saw your netting in the [Bali] village...last month! It was nice to see it already there and being used!
I also saw the nets they had before. There were worthless green nets, black nets, white nets and misquito nets...all hair-brained notions of Eco-office people offered to the villagers as the answer to cyanide fishing. [These people should be banned from the villages!]
Teaching divers to use inferior methods only drives them back to cyanide fishing. The only reason this village didn't go back was due to the efforts of Ferdie Cruz and his non-MAC Indonesian associates.
Here is but an example of a low-cost conversion that stuck. This village could lead to a hundred or more if done properly....but ; You have to actually care about the problem enough to want to solve it and make the village and each village the centerpiece of reform and not just use the subject matter to futher other ambitions.
Congratulations Mike and Mary!
Sincerely, Steve

 

[dizzy]

Merry Christmas

 

[jamesw]

Hi Guys, sure, go ahead and attack me, I don't mind. I'm not in "the business" and have nothing to gain either way. I was just stating my opinion as a hobbyist and from my discussions w/ all of you.

Steve, you can tell me I'm wrong too if want, I don't mind. Obviously I don't think I'm wrong about this or I wouldn't have even said it (duh!). I guess we can leave it up to the readers to decide.

If you want to ask MAC questions, why not just call them, like I advised. If you have a cell phone w/ nationwide plan, it won't cost any more than calling your next-door neighbor. Dispatching an email may be more convenient for you - maybe because it doesn't feel like you're talking to a "real person" and all - but emails are pretty easy to just file away "to answer later."

Cheers and happy holidays,
James

 

[MaryHM]

Or maybe they don't want to answer any emails because they don't want any of their answers in print. It's much easier to say someone misunderstood the context of a phone call. They've done that to me- told me one thing, I reported it (to AMDA) and then they denied they said it. Having no proof, what could I do?? If they're just going to file all of the questions from industry professionals, scientists, and hobbyists in a "answer later" file, maybe they should just remove their email as a form of contact on their website.

 

[Ad van Tage]

If you want to ask MAC questions, ...........................

Cheers and happy holidays, James

In fact James, that was just what I thought I was doing when I opened this thread. Having noticed for instance by reading various threads that at times we see posts signed:

John Brandt

MASNA (USCRTF/MAC/Legislation Liaison)
MAC (Board of Directors)
CMAS-Chicago (Vice President)

I wondered if one OR MORE people who are associated with MAC are in fact on this forum. But more importantly I woindered whether any one of these voices was in fact an "official communications channel" from and to MAC.

I have to admit that my experience has been that when one signs off with a clearly stated affiliation, that one likely is speaking on behalf of the identified organisation. However, I hate to assume things, ergo I asked the question.


36 posts later, and I am no further ahead ...

 

[Ad van Tage]

I shall try to respond to the various parts below.

Yes, of course MAC has official spokespeople.
If you call their office, you too can talk to one.
It's a free call if you have nation wide roaming.
.

Are we not assuming an awful lot here? Last I saw was that the first importer who was certified by MAC was in fact in The Hague. Correct me if I am wrong, but "nation wide roaming" won't work there, nor anywhere else that is not the "assumed turf".

But I think MAC has made a conscious decision not to post here and I think it is a good decision on their part.
.

Hmmm, it is nice to think about things. But I find it better to not let the thinking lead to assumptions..
And please do share with us why you "think" that the assumed decision by MAC was in fact a good decision on their part.
Perhaps you can share with us why you have come to that conclusion.

Mike said:

I think that MAC feels that many of us are in that extreme zone, and understanding that they cannot satisfy us, they ignore us.

And I agree with him on this one. We HONESTLY TRIED for a while to get MAC involved here, in many ways, ---

May I ask who the "we" are that tried honestly. The statement is not clear to me.

--- but ultimately, I think it would be like showing up at a public transportation town hall meeting at UC Berkeley. No matter what you say, you will be wrong in somebody's eyes.

Is it not a healthy sign when one gets to a forum, and there is reasonable and thoughtful discussion, without there being unanimity. Heck, look at it the other way around. James , it is the old "is the glass half empty or half full". Chances are pretty damn good that there will be others who will agree, and think you are right.

And the people that disagree with you have a lot more free time on their hands and a LOT louder voice.

I must say, that I find this a slanderous assumption.

So why bother?

I think that the people who CARE about an ethical Marine Aquarium hobby/trade etc. etc. ought to be VERY MOTIVATED.

Focus your efforts somewhere else.

I believe that people who have tried to get through a Berlin Wall, but whose heads are getting sore will come up with methods other than headbanging to get to the other side.

That's my opinion at least.

...

James

Cheers
[/quote]

So long,

 

[dizzy]

Dear Ad,
Welcome to reefs.org. If your across the pond you may want to contact Svein Fossa with your MAC related questions. Let me know if you need his e-mail address. I enjoy the perspective you bring to the board and encourage you to keep posting.
Mitch Gibbs