Cyanide: What it does to the reefs

[naesco]

For those who need to know

Philippine fishers squirt cyanide supplied by industry into the crevices in the reef.
The fish exit and immediately 50% of them die from the lethal poison.
The remaining stunned fish are collected and by the time they reach the shore 50% of those collected die.
By the time the remaining fish are transported to the cyanide exporter, are received by his stateside partner, LFS and in the hobbyist tank a further 50% die.
Most of those that survive in the hobbyist tanks succumb to the poison with a few months and die for know apparent reason.

All of the other critters that are on the reef, the inverts, corals are also killed as is the reef itself.

 

[Anonymous]

Please provide documentation.

 

[naesco]

Please provide documentation.

I don't have the time to dig this stuff out of the threads but Mary Steve Dr. Rubec and others familiar with the effects of cyanide will verify the above.

 

[Anonymous]

Don't get me wrong, its not that I'm playing devils advocate and that cyanide use isn't bad, but those "figures" suggest that divers using it are seeing only about a 25% "take"..

As a sport fisherman, I typically practice catch and release in US waters. But even when I'm food fishing relatively extreme remote Canadian waters that I only visit once every handful of years, if I were to kill 75% of my take I would be fearful of cutting off my hand to spite my face (and not have that food source on one of my return visits..)

You can't honestly tell me that PI / Indo divers are incapable of seeing this possibility as well..? - Or are you suggesting that they do see it but go ahead and squirt for 'em anyway?

 

[naesco]

Don't get me wrong, its not that I'm playing devils advocate and that cyanide use isn't bad, but those "figures" suggest that divers using it are seeing only about a 25% "take".

You can't honestly tell me that PI / Indo divers are incapable of seeing this possibility as well..? - Or are you suggesting that they do see it but go ahead and squirt for 'em anyway?

Here is another dirty little secret exposed on this board.
The same industry guy that buys the fish sells the cyanide.
So if you are a poor Philippine fisher and need to sell your fish you must than by the cyanide. Yhe answer is they have no choice.
Obviously the fishers see the destruction and the lack of fish but go farther and farther away from their home to fish.

By placing an immediate embargo on Philippine fish we force the cyanide cartel and their American cohorts to go the net caught route. It is as simple as that. They have the infrastructure in place to do it but continue with the cyanide route because it is more profitable.

 

[John_Brandt]

Here is another dirty little secret exposed on this board.
The same industry guy that buys the fish sells the cyanide. So if you are a poor Philippine fisher and need to sell your fish you must than by the cyanide. Yhe answer is they have no choice.

Ferdinand Cruz says that Filipino fishers are given the cyanide for free. They don't pay for it.

 

[naesco]

Here is another dirty little secret exposed on this board.
The same industry guy that buys the fish sells the cyanide. So if you are a poor Philippine fisher and need to sell your fish you must than by the cyanide. Yhe answer is they have no choice.

Ferdinand Cruz says that Filipino fishers are given the cyanide for free. They don't pay for it.

If that is what he says I believe him but that was not what was posted by others.

 

[MaryHM]

Mary Steve Dr. Rubec and others familiar with the effects of cyanide will verify the above.

Sorry, but you won't get any verification of your "statistics" from me.

[/list]

 

[naesco]

Mary Steve Dr. Rubec and others familiar with the effects of cyanide will verify the above.

Sorry, but you won't get any verification of your "statistics" from me.

[/list]

Why not Mary? Are they incorrect? Are they too high? Too low??

 

[John_Brandt]

Ferdinand Cruz says that Filipino fishers are given the cyanide for free. They don't pay for it.

If that is what he says I believe him but that was not what was posted by others.

Yeah, I asked him specifically about it. I said that lots of people talk about the cost of cyanide to the fishers. He said the raw sodium cyanide is given to the fishers by members of the trade or their agents.

 

[naesco]

Ferdinand Cruz says that Filipino fishers are given the cyanide for free. They don't pay for it.

If that is what he says I believe him but that was not what was posted by others.

Yeah, I asked him specifically about it. I said that lots of people talk about the cost of cyanide to the fishers. He said the raw sodium cyanide is given to the fishers by members of the trade or their agents.

Maybe Mary has a comment as most of the educational posts in the past that alerted hobbyists about cyanide were posted by herl. The comment was that the industry buyers had the fishers by the shorts as if they did not buy the cyanide from them, the buyers would not buy their fish.

 

[MaryHM]

Concerning your statistics in the original post, they're unfounded. I don't see any mortalities anywhere near what you're claiming. If I did, I'd be out of business. So would everyone else stateside. How you can say that all of those fish are dying at such incredible rates and then turn around and say "They have the infrastructure in place to do it but continue with the cyanide route because it is more profitable" is beyond me.

Concerning the cyanide getting to the divers, I have been told by numerous people that it is one way the middlemen keep the divers under control- by keeping them in debt via their cyanide tab. It's second hand information from what I consider to be reliable sources, but it could be wrong.

 

[naesco]

Concerning your statistics in the original post, they're unfounded. I don't see any mortalities anywhere near what you're claiming. If I did, I'd be out of business. So would everyone else stateside. How you can say that all of those fish are dying at such incredible rates and then turn around and say "They have the infrastructure in place to do it but continue with the cyanide route because it is more profitable" is beyond me.

Concerning the cyanide getting to the divers, I have been told by numerous people that it is one way the middlemen keep the divers under control- by keeping them in debt via their cyanide tab. It's second hand information from what I consider to be reliable sources, but it could be wrong.

Thank you for coming to my assistance on the cyanide debt issue.
I have posted these statistics many times on both RC and RDO and they were never challenged by you. Those statistics were originally posted by someone knowledgeable in the industry.

The reason they are dying in those numbers and the reefs is dying is because cyanide is a lethal poison.
Squirt it into a reef and what would you expect other than death in these numbers. That is why when they were posted I believed them.

 

[MaryHM]

If you have posted those statistics, either I didn't see them or didn't feel like arguing with you that day. However, don't take a lack of response as an agreement. MAC made that mistake on the 1% DOA rule one time and it came back to bite them in the caudal fin.

 

[PeterIMA]

Wayne, I am probably the source of the information concerning mortality through the chain. In papers that I published in 1986 (First Asian Fisheries Forum, and 1991 (Toxicity Workshop held in Vancouver in 1990) I stated that 50% of the fish die from acute mortality due to exposure to cyanide on the reef and that 30% (on average) die at each step of the chain from the village level, to export, import, and retail levels (e.g., of those that survived from the previous level, 30% die say at the import level). The cumulative delayed mortality through the chain of custody was estimated to be 80% if one excludes the acute mortality on the reef. Including mortalities on the reef, the cumulative mortality was estimated to exceed 90%. With regard to delayed mortality there is evidence that cyanide and other factors like stress, ammonia, disease, and starvation are involved. I discussed this in a paper (Net-Caught Cyanide-free) published during 2001 in Aquarium Sciences and Conservation. I recently prepared a paper that will be published associated with the Proceedings of the last Marine Ornamentals Conference held in Honololu March 1-6, 2004. The more recent data obtained confirms the earlier claims about high mortality in the trade. Ed Case apparently has not read my papers and underestimated the mortality rates in his draft legislation. Apparently, he took his numbers which were presented in a paper in Scientific American about two years ago. As far as I can see there is no basis in fact for the lower estimates concerning cumulative mortality in the trade.

Peter Rubec

 

[JT]

BLAME CANADA!!
BLAME CANADA!!

 

[clarionreef]

But JT,
Since CANADA HAS SHOWN THE WAY AND ALREADY IMPORTS ONLY NETCAUGHT FISH...
they must feel uniquley qualified to prescribe for the rest of the world.
I mean no one would criticize the housekeeping of another whilst their own house was not in order, right?
Whatdaya mean Canadas not a cyanide free zone?!
Obviously it would not exonerate the US for what ever it does...but to behold the protests and exhortations of Canadians despite their own history of complicity in all this is most perplexing. Could it be that there is so little actual concern there that Canadians [ transplants excepted] have to troll... gasp...American websites to find evidence of concern for the issues?
Bingo!
Wayne; present a report [ he loves to give lists to others] on the following;
1. Canadian retailers response to the all netcaught/sustainable agenda
2. Parlamentary concerns...ie. bills submitted to assist in the search for sustainable Canadian marine imports.
3. Canadian importers meetings centered on these concerns
4. Canadian campaigns to ban everything they cannot understand
5. Canadian efforts to extent economic justice to poor fisherfolk while trying to delete their livlihoods thru an embargo.

There are no exports without Philippine authority
There are no fish without Filipino purchases from the fisherman first,
There are no fish without Manila business people selling them...willingly, eagerly, ernestly.
There is no crime of custody without layers of it sanctioned and approved by Filipinos first.
There is no 'top-down' market fix on this side of the ocean eminating from a groundswell of environmentally enthusiastic aquarists..
There is no 'white mans burden' implicit in this affair unless the fish are smuggled in defiance of Philippine law.
Exporters seek commodity clearances from a rubber stamping BFAR all day long Mon-Fri. If fisheries says no...its no, instantly!
Exporters seek cargo reservations for shipments with full documentaion all day long.
This trade is conducted in broad daylight everyday and with apparently full acceptance from the top authorities.
The Director of the Bureau of Fisheries is Atty. Malcolm Sarmiento
and he has as his right hand man and policy advisor on all this...MACs very own country co-ordinator.
Ban? Embargo? Shutdown? Coral export possibilities? Clam farms? Etc. Etc. ITS all there folks,
BFAR is large and in charge...and they seem to have a very different agenda for their own country then what we hear here.
During the Marcos time...I called for a letter writing campign to the BFAR chief Gonzales back then. He got a lot and asked us to call it off.
Director Sarmiento perhaps has not had the pleasure of feedback from our colleagues from the North.
Guys...direct some energy where it may do some good.
Steve
PS.
Hint...do not, repeat, do not patronize him or blow any smoke.
He has delt with North Americans for a long time.

 

[naesco]

If you have posted those statistics, either I didn't see them or didn't feel like arguing with you that day. However, don't take a lack of response as an agreement. MAC made that mistake on the 1% DOA rule one time and it came back to bite them in the caudal fin.

Dr. Rubec is the world accepted expert in cyanide.
Thank you for reminding me that the information came from your report.

The purpose of this thread was to let newbies know the result of cyanide catchment on the reefs and the critters.

The results have now been confirmed

 

[JT]

The purpose of this thread was to let newbies know the result of cyanide catchment on the reefs and the critters.

YOU sir, are the last person on the face of the earth who I would want educating newbies, or the public as a whole, on this topic. You have no experience in this matter.

Therefore, as others have asked, I respectfully ask you to STFU.

 

[Anonymous]

I love that word... catchment.... it rolls of the toungue like a brick.

catch·ment ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kchmnt, kch-)
n.
A catching or collecting of water, especially rainwater.

A structure, such as a basin or reservoir, used for collecting or draining water.
The amount of water collected in such structure.
A catchment area.