4928 and mamti, and the international mo trade

[Anonymous]

it seems to me that a good part of the discussion here re: 'case's' bill, and mamti, have only been discussed in terms of how they'll affect the trade here in the u.s., almost to the point of ignoring the international aspects/causes/effects involved


what do you think will happen vis-a-vis the pressures/demands of other countries' mo industries on the reefs post 4928/mamti ?

what about the collection pressures from other countries ? the aquarium industry is international in scope, after all.....

will the reduced (potentially) market here just lead to cheaper fish elsewhere ?

will passing the bill possibly help those in the u.s. think the issues of reef habitat destruction are being solved, only to find out that the problems are still there, only to be contributed to, and worsened, by other nations ?


what about other countries' (and our own)food fish industry ?

 

[kylen]

Will exporters be able to survive without the US market? Would they not start to fall like dominos?

 

[Anonymous]

I thought the trade was at least as large in Germany and Japan.

Is it?

Peace,

Chip

 

[dizzy]

It's not even close in Germany. I was there for Interzoo in 1998 and got to see a lot of hobbyist tanks and talk with them about the size of the hobby. The hobbyists there are very advanced though. Man you think hr4928 is going to be tough on US wholesalers/retailers. Wait until their genius lawmakers get a crack at it. They had banned all butterflies and angels at one time. They also had a law against nano tanks at one time, I believe.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

my understanding is that the hobby/trade is growing in south america, vietnam, that japan is fairly developed and growing, indo as an industry is getting more and more involved as time progresses...

one of the thoughts i had involved the following scenario:

let's say the bill and mamti go through-that would effectively mean the end of the trading here in , for example, hippo tangs

as i see it, those who collect hippos will still want to export hippos, as close to the maximums they've been sending out while we were/are still a 'contributing consumer'

won't the market just look to sell the hippos we no longer buy somewhere else?

what if because of a 'mini-glut', the price of hippos has to drop, to remain at the same level of volume? (cash flow is as important as revenue, quite often, in this biz)

might that not INCREASE buying pressure in other countries, as more become able to afford the hippos, 'till the price goes back up again?

(hippos are just an example, no one needs to start yelling that the only species i think will be affected/ be affecting the scenario are hippo tangs :wink: )

any thoughts on my p.o.v. ?

 

[John_Brandt]

 

[dizzy]

Japan would be the largest market. Too much poverty and economic woes for South America to be much of a market. They collect and ship quit a bit though. Some which comes here and some goes to Japan and Europe. Look for the US and international conservation groups to put pressure on other countries to follow suit. A little FYI: MAMTI thinks there are 4500 marine retailers in the US and Europe. I think 3000 here and 1500 there. Mainly England, Holland, Germany, Norway. France and Italy to a much lessor extent. German retailers buy from wholesalers in Holland. Got started in the days of the butterfly and angel ban. :wink: The hobby will find a way. I don't believe prices could go much lower than they already are regardless of demand. Look for a boom in food fishing.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

thx for the map john ..

though i know for a fact it's highly innacurate/misleading :wink:

i know of at least 2 mideast countries where the sw hobby, is thriving, and where mo have been imported for decades, i lived in, and worked in the mo biz, in one of them

i also find it impossible to believe that brasil does not import mo, same w/russia

the data is either over 30 yrs old, or simply faulty, IMO

how about a map of CONSUMER countries, not just an export/import map, with only what mac , or whoever made that map, consider 'major'/'minor' ?

like an estimate of households keeping a sw tank/country? or at least which countries recieve ANY shipments from certified suppliers (certified mean traceability to destination ports as well, yes?)

i bet the colors/countrys don't exactly match up, re the consumer countries, and the import countries on this map


this isn't an 'attack' on you or mac, i just happen to know that the map is NOT reflective of the current level of trade in the world today

 

[Anonymous]

addendum

israel is a tad smaller than joisey, and there are at least 4-5 decent scale mo importers there

nothing like the scale of the us total, but enough to have it listed/colored at least as a 'weak' importer :wink:

 

[naesco]

Thanks for the map John.
Bill 4928 rceognized in
SEC. 2. FINDINGS AND PURPOSE

(a) Findings- Congress finds the following

(6) The United States is the largest importer of live coral, live rock, and marine fish for the aquarium trade and of coral skeletons and precious corals for souvenirs and jewelry

(8) More than half of the fish imported into the United States for the marine aquarium market are estimated to be captured with the use of cyanide

(9) As many as 1/3 to 1/2 of the aquarium fish imported from Southeast Asia die shortly after arriving in the United States due to stress associated with handling and transport and the use of cyanide during capture, and such high mortality rates lead to continued pressure for extraction from the wild to maintain public and private collections

The United State tends to be the leader in most enviromental initiatives with other major countries like Canada and most European countries following generally with better, tougher legislation.

 

[dizzy]

What? 8O Where did you here that? I think most of this stuff comes from large international conferences of scientists representing a lot of countries. Sometimes the US goes along and sometimes they don't. I've never heard they were usually the leader. Business is king in this country. You guys really need to get Fox News up there.
Mitch

 

[John_Brandt]

Is the map inaccurate or just incomplete?

It doesn't locate small or medium importers at all. The data used would not have been 30 years old.

You could say it's misleading because it doesn't show smaller importing countries. But it's easy to realize that they exist and then understand that the map isn't locating them by design. They would probably clutter the map to a distracting extent, but it certainly could be done. Or rather, you would then start divvying up the countries of Europe into rankings of importation volume rather than creating one unit of European Nations. Bottom line, the map doesn't point out smaller importing regions or countries.

Additionally, the map does not depict countries that both export and import (as would be the case for Israel). Florida is shown as an exporter and not an importer (even though it's within the USA).

 

[Kalkbreath]

Most of the MO collectors in PI already collect food fish part time...... even countries like Tonga have collectors/exporters that collect MO part time and food fish part time.........Isnt that so Fish Heads! Currently ,

 

[Anonymous]

Is the map inaccurate or just incomplete?

It doesn't locate small or medium importers at all. The data used would not have been 30 years old.

You could say it's misleading because it doesn't show smaller importing countries. But it's easy to realize that they exist and then understand that the map isn't locating them by design. They would probably clutter the map to a distracting extent, but it certainly could be done. Or rather, you would then start divvying up the countries of Europe into rankings of importation volume rather than creating one unit of European Nations. Bottom line, the map doesn't point out smaller importing regions or countries.

Additionally, the map does depict countries that both export and import (as would be the case for Israel). Florida is shown as an exporter and not an importer (even though it's within the USA).

i'm not aware af an israeli exporter, w/the exception of aquacultured specimens, or specimens imported to israel, and then reshipped out

the restrictions for collection in israeli territorial waters is one of the strictest on the planet

you will get thrown in jail or heavily fined if an officer of the society for the protection of nature finds you removing a seashell off an eilat beach

heh- a friend and i went down there about every 2 weeks to snorkel, and visit robert brons over at the red sea facility, to shoot the breeze (very nice guy, btw )

even though bicintus clowns are found off the coast there, you have/had to import/acquire them from (originally) jordanian sources/collectors, or other international exporters, and get them through an importer/wholesaler

one of the interesting things i found out (at least back then in the early/mid '90's) was that the bicinctus clowns (broodstock) there (at red sea fish pharm) were obtained from a foriegn (non-israeli) source, and weren't allowed to be marketed in israel, since it's protected by the 'sherut l'haganat hatevah' (society for the protection of nature), kind of an equivalent to an environment protective f&w (kind of funny, when you can't market t/r clowns that you're raising in your own country, due to trade restrictions based on a 'protected' status, when marketingt/r is one of the best ways to reduce collection pressures :wink: )

it's possible things are different now though

on the way to eilat, just north of the city, is a shallow 'field' (sand flat) a few klicks long (mebbe) that has tons of pulsing xenia colonies, on fist size rocks, that pepper the flat

we'd always stop there on the way back to j'lem to try and collect 2-3 colonies for our tanks-took us over a month to have the oppurtunity of NOT meeting a patrol jeep,hehe

anyone who hangs around the less visited stretches of coast there in the area triggers a red flag for a meet w/a field patroller

we had to first surreptitiously move a few (literally 2-3) colonies to a predetermined spot one week, and come back for them very quickly 2 weeks later

one of those colonies made it into at least a dozen other hobbyist's tanks, btw, through fragging