Netting

[Anonymous]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about netting (or maybe it is just me).


A few questions maybe we can discuss.

1) What types of nets are there and what are they used for? (ie what's the difference between barrier and hand netting)

2) Why is it so hard to get the right netting? It seems that of there is an entore industry out there needing it, someone would pop up and supply it. And why do the fisherman continue to use it if it is wrong?

 

[MaryHM]

1) Steve is more knowledgable than I am about this, but from my understanding you basically have hand nets and barrier nets. The names are pretty self explanatory. Mesh size, material, and use are the differences.

2) The right hand netting is already over there. It's the stuff Steve gave his thumbs up to. The problem is the barrier netting. It's available, but it's a lot more expensive than the hand netting. That's why it's necessary to raise funds for it. It's not readily available in the Philippines because it's only legal for use in the MO trade and that use isn't enough to warrant the local manufacturers from making it. Why do fishermen use the wrong nets? Well, when someone is trying to eek out a livlihood they tend to use anything they can get. They don't sit in their houses and sulk because they can't get the right materials. Sitting=starving.

 

[dizzy]

The barrier net is larger mesh and needs to be stronger. Something like 3/4" holes. I believe Steve said 2# test. It might be 3' in height and 15-20 foot long. The cheap stuff tears easily and means too much down time reparing which sends the divers back to cyanide. This netting needs to be invisible to the fish which are driven into it. It is a bit like a minnow seine with weights and floats. I believe it is used for larger fish like tangs and angels, etc. The hand nets are used to scoop the fish out of the barrier net. Certain smaller fish require different hand nets I believe. Steve gave a demo of how easily some of the cheap stuff tears. You guys should make an effort to catch his lecture sometime.
Mitch

 

[John_Brandt]

The cheap stuff tears easily and means too much down time reparing which sends the divers back to cyanide.

But wouldn't the cyanide fishers experience "down time" as well as they repair their own damaged nets? Or do we have the mental picture that Peter painted of cyanide fishers only using a squirt bottle and their bare hands? I envision cyanide being used to force fish out of crevices and into a net (barrier and/or hand net).

Unfortunately, I have yet to hear a rational explanation of how a skilled fisher using only nets can have a greater yield than the same skilled fisher using the same nets + cyanide can have. I am not making that statement in support of cyanide under any circumstances.

 

[dizzy]

John,
I doubt the juicers use barrier nets. I can see them using the hand nets to scoop the dazed fish out of the water. I remember seeing the video of the divers using sodium but I can't recall how they grabbed the fish. I can see how the fishers could catch a lot of fish with large barrier nets. I can also understand how it needs to be better than the stuff Steve was able to tear with so little effort.
Mitch

 

[Fish_dave]

I am not an expert in cyanide fishing as I have only worked with net collectors but from what I have heard and from what I have actually seen working with Florida collectors who were using quinaldine the juice collectors are not what I would call skilled collectors. They use the juice to stun the fish which generally also gets it out of its refuge / hiding place and they then scoop it up with a hand net. Barrier nets are not used when juice fishing.

A skilled net collector can collect more fish for two reasons. First he learns the habits of the fish he is collecting. He knows which direction they will go and where they will head before even the fish itself knows where it is going. He is generally interested in the fish and gives thought to problem solving and working in a more efficient manner. Juice fishermen are not problem solvers, they are after the quick and easy result. Secondly when using barrier nets you do not need the fish to hole up before collecting it. A juice fisherman first needs to get the fish into a hole or crevice in the reef before he can use his juice. Free swimming fish can not be collected efficiently with juice. A net collector can collect fish as soon as they are sighted while still out in the open. A net collector would rather catch fish that are out in the open, he does not waste time getting them to hole up. If a fish is in a hole or crevice then the net collector will generally use a poker or "tickle stick" to scare the fish from the hiding place. Other methods are also used to scare the fish from hiding but it would take several pages to go int detail about it. I am being purposely simplistic about the procedure. Also it is not at all uncommon for a good net collector to collect multiple fish at the same time. I have seen good net collectors catch over 50 anthias at one scoop and over 20 fairy wrasse. A juice collector is usually after a single fish at a time.

As for the down time in net repair it is the barrier nets that take all of the time to repair. It is a tedious process. To repair a hand net is quick and simple, if the hand net has more than a few holes they usually use new net for a new one. I had a hand net made in the philippines that I used collecting for years with maybe only a few hours put into repair of it. My barrier nets need a few hours each week. There is a huge difference of time required to do net repair on the different types.

Dave

 

[Fish_dave]

Another little tid bit that may be interesting. It is difficult to switch from juice fishing to net collecting. The collectors become so reliant on the juice that they develop no collecting skills. I had a Florida collector come down and spend two weeks with us in the Solomons. The plan was that he would catch enough fish to pay for his plane ticket to come down. He could not catch a single fish. He became so frustrated that he was throwing his equipment around and broke his fancy acrylic rimmed hand nets. These hand nets were useless, they had a thick acrylic rim that could not be bent and used a barrier net type material for the netting. Absolutly useless for anything but scooping up juiced fish. This guy was able to support himself in Florida collecting fish with juice but when he could not use the juice he could not catch a thing. (I had better take that back, he did catch a few coral catfish one day that my boat tenders threw back when he was not looking). Anyway my point is that juice collectors be it cyanide, quinaldine, or ms222 are not skilled collectors in my opinion. Many of them will not or can not make the transition to net collecting as net collecting does require skill, thought process, and problem solving ability. Juice collecting requires not much in my opinion.

Dave

 

[John_Brandt]

I doubt the juicers use barrier nets. I can see them using the hand nets to scoop the dazed fish out of the water.

I bet they do use barrier nets. I envision a range of reactions from juiced fish going from annoyance and flight to instant death. The goal is to get the fish out of the hole and into a net with minimal damage to the fish. Dead fish are unsaleable to the exporter. This would seem to be especially true for valuable fish. When the exposure only causes the fish to bolt from the hole I can imagine that fish being capable of evading hand nets. A barrier net erected to surround the vicinity of the hole would trap the fish as it darts out, it is then dealt with in the same fashion as a net fisher. The net fisher uses a poker to get the fish out of the hole, the cyanide fisher uses a squirt to do the same. Once the fish bolts from the hole the cyanide fisher and net fisher are on equal ground to trap it (presuming the juiced fish is not fully incapacitated).

I am making assumptions in my statements, but trying to make them logical.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Dave. That was very informative.

 

[John_Brandt]

I am not an expert in cyanide fishing as I have only worked with net collectors but from what I have heard and from what I have actually seen working with Florida collectors who were using quinaldine the juice collectors are not what I would call skilled collectors.

Dave, we have been told many times in this forum that many Filipino cyanide fishers are ones who have "backslid". That means they have been trained and equipped to use only nets but for various reasons have switched back to cyanide. One could draw the logical conclusion that (at least in this case) these are skilled netsmen who are now using cyanide. FWIW.

 

[Fish_dave]

John,

As I stated I am not an expert about the capture of fish with cyanide. I have however had a lot of experience with Florida fishermen who use quinaldine in the same manner as cyanide. In fact I will admit that I have used quinaldine collecting in Florida and also Mexico. Quinaldine or "juice" is a crutch that helps you collect something when you are not skilled enough to catch fish without it. I have spent 9 months with collectors in Sri Lanka using only hand nets, 3 months with collectors in Australia using only nets (barrier and hand), several months with collectors in the carribean using only nets, and have trained well over a hundred collectors in the Solomons to use only nets to collect. I can say absolutly and for sure that a good net collector can catch many more fish per day than a collector using juice. A poor net collector can catch more fish with juice. Not everyone has the skills to become a good net collector, it does take some brain useage. I have seen many fishermen in the Solomons who could just not get it and have gone on to some other work, they could not support themselves catching ornamentals with a net. I have another diver who can make over 8 times the going average daily pay rate every day he goes diving. He catches the equivalent of around 500.00 export value of fish per day. He is a great net catcher and now the MAC have lured him away from me and he has become one of their net trainers. (Yes I am a little sore about it he was my best diver). I really think that any back sliding that you are hearing about divers going from nets back to juice are the guys that don't really get it when using nets. There is no way that a juice collector could collect the numbers of fish that my diver Chris can catch. I would definitly put money on it. That would be a great competition, juice vs. nets. It would not even be close, Chris would get him by at least double. The thing is that you have to be a good net collector to produce big numbers. A poor net collector or novice will catch almost nothing while a novice juice collector will still be able to have a good catch, probably 50 % or more of what an experienced juice collector could catch. I wish that you could see it in practice. A good net collector is amazing to watch, it is like an underwater ballet. A good juice collector really needs very little skill.

Changing the Philippine divers from juice to nets is not as simple as just handing them nets and giving them a little training. It takes many months if not years to become a good net collector. They are going to start out collecting very little when they first start out. I feel for the guys, it is like taking a huge cut in pay to try and do the right thing. Many are absolutly not going to stick it out. A lot of the collectors are either going to go back to cyanide or find another type of fishing to do because they just are not going to have the stuff to become good net collectors. However the guys that do make it and become good net collectors will be able to get all of the fish that we need. Good net collectors can supply large amounts of fish. I have dove with collectors in Sri Lanka who have been collecting with nets since they were 7 years old. The oldest one I dove with was 47 years old and an amazing collector. I have seen 50 anthias at a time taken with just hand nets (that is 50 in one scoop in one net) let a juice collector come up with those numbers. I am passionate about nets because they are more efficient when used by a skilled collector. If you or anyone still insists that cyanide is an efficient method of catching fish then we really need to arrange that net vs juice catch off. I will concede that juice is easy and that a novice can catch fish with it but it is by no means the most efficient method of collecting ornamentals.

Dave

 

[John_Brandt]

Dave, than you for your excellent informative post.

I have another diver who can make over 8 times the going average daily pay rate every day he goes diving. He catches the equivalent of around 500.00 export value of fish per day. He is a great net catcher and now the MAC have lured him away from me and he has become one of their net trainers. (Yes I am a little sore about it he was my best diver).

Uh, I don't know what to say about that. I guess MAC knows what they are doing when selecting net trainers. But it is uneasy to know that this was done at your expense.

I really think that any back sliding that you are hearing about divers going from nets back to juice are the guys that don't really get it when using nets.

We have been told in this forum that backsliding generally occurs because the "proper" netting is unavailable or denied to the fishers. There are no doubt other reasons. MAC employs teams of Filipino net-fishers in the Philippines to train cyanide-fishers to use only nets.

That would be a great competition, juice vs. nets. It would not even be close, Chris would get him by at least double.... I wish that you could see it in practice. A good net collector is amazing to watch, it is like an underwater ballet. A good juice collector really needs very little skill.

I'd love to see that. But I'd be hesitant to condone cyanide use, if even only for a test. A fair contest would be the most productive net-fisher vs. the most productive cyanide-fisher.

Changing the Philippine divers from juice to nets is not as simple as just handing them nets and giving them a little training. It takes many months if not years to become a good net collector.

I believe that, and am happy that MAC is in it for the long haul because of it. Individuals claiming to be able to properly convert 1000 fishers to nets in a year in the Philippines might be an irresponsible boast.

They are going to start out collecting very little when they first start out. I feel for the guys, it is like taking a huge cut in pay to try and do the right thing. Many are absolutly not going to stick it out. A lot of the collectors are either going to go back to cyanide or find another type of fishing to do because they just are not going to have the stuff to become good net collectors. However the guys that do make it and become good net collectors will be able to get all of the fish that we need.

Ferdinand Cruz specifically stated that fishers are given cyanide for free in the Philippines. The availability and temptation may always be present for fishers. An organized long-term approach and authoritative presence might be necessary to make it stick. MAC is working on this and has allocated large funding and human capacity specifically for this purpose.

 

[naesco]

John.
I have a movie of fishers using cyanide to catch fish in the Philippines. It shows the diver diving down from his boat sans netting.

It shows him squirting cyanide in and about the reef again sans netting.

The net caught diver leaves the boat with netting in his hand and is seen to set it up and use a hand net to scoop and/or direct the fish towards the barrier netting.

The movie also shows reefs devastated by the use of cyanide. It states that 75% of the Philippine reefs are now lost.

The movie was produced by the Haribon Foundation with funding coming from the Canadian government.

 

[Fish_dave]

Naesco,

I have seen that film also. It was a set up. It was not done in a true collecting setting. It was set up for film. Making assumptions about the true state of collecting from that bit of film would be bogus. Untill you have lived with the collectors for weeks or better months and gained their trust and most importantly respect, you will not be part of the team and be able to make a reasonable intrepretation of how things are done. The white film weenies were not able to go out and film a real group of divers in a real world setting. it was set up by the weenies for the film. It would not be so bad but guys like you ASSUME that it is for real and start making ASSUMPTIONS about how collecting is actually done.

A good juice collector always has a hand net to catch the stunned fish that come out of the coral heads. The fish he wants are not the ones lying on the ground to be picked up. Those are the dead fish. He wants the stunned ones that are doing summersaults or are blindly swimming here and there looking for another hiding place. It takes a hand net to scoop up these fish. A fisherman going after food fish may squirt the coral as in the movie and pick up the dead fish from the bottom to take home and eat. An aquarium collector would have nets with him. Don't believe everything that you see in Canadian funded films.

Dave

 

[John_Brandt]

I have also seen numerous filmed depictions of cyanide collecting. None actually show collecting going on. I've been told they put milk in the bottle for the demo. They just squirt it into the reef - you don't even see any fish in these scenes.

I know of no footage that shows fishers using real cyanide capturing real fish.

 

[naesco]

Don't believe everything that you see in Canadian funded films. :lol:

I feel better already knowing that it was a re-enactment.

The portions showing the fisher using the net, and the training, was really interesting.

 

[PeterIMA]

John, I have a large collection of videos about cyanide fishing and net collecting. Probably the most authentic video of fishers using nets and cyanide was done in the 1980s by a German film crew in association with Helmut Debelius. In the German video cyanide was used to drive tangs out of the corals where they were caught in gill nets.

Many Filipino collectors presently using cyanide keep a barrier net in the boat to confuse law enforcement.

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

The stock of the cheap, Chinese 1 lb netting was there in abundance.
To compliment it...handnetting was thought to be needed by some.
So...the right handnetting was sent in an excessive amount while the right barrier netting still did not exist.
This is why the handnetting can hardly be used and why most of it is in fact still in the wharehouse.

If, the issue was not run away with and if the more intelligent program was not usurped, then the two kinds of netting would've been defined and linked together as a "set"...as was the AMDA mission on this.
The chance to do this was lost as everyone piled on to the cheaper...easier solution [ human nature I guess }.
Real net collectors cannot work in a genuine fashion with good handnetting and bogus barrier netting.
THEY MUST HAVE THE SET...OF both GENUINE NETTINGS and so far, ie. only the villages in the North East Bali area have the two unless provided by a private company.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Mary, Steve was not criticizing the hand netting (which is 1/4 inch square mesh without knots). He was referring to 3/8th inch stretched mesh knotted 1-lb test barrier netting (the Chinese netting from Tiawan that tears easily) versus 1/4" stretched mesh knotted 2-lb barrier netting (also from Taiwan but only in large quantities). I had the opportunity to closely view both at the MO Conference in Honolulu in March. Both types of barrier netting were on sale at a store in Honolulu in quantities that were affordable.

All Steve is saying is that the collectors need a) hand netting (like what you provided to Ferdinand) and b) the right 2-lb barrier netting.

This is not rocket-science. But, getting the right netting into the hands of the collectors is not as easy at it sounds. First, the 2-lb barrier netting is harder to find and more costly. The second problem (at least in the Philippines) is that the government has a 100% tariff on all goods imported. The RP government could help if they made an exception and allowed barrier netting to be imported without the tariff.

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

Thank you Peter,
But please accept that the real stuff is still VERY CHEAP!
The better source we found this year no longer has a minimum and the cost per diver is about $10. per net.
Thats 35X cheaper then a years need for cyanide!
Granted, the Chinese stuff is a mere 4 bucks per diver which is the reason it was always used. Cheaper...but counterproductive as it is hated by divers and sends many of them back to cyanide fishing.
The divers are fatalistic about their chances of ever getting the right stuff because one program after another opts to "save money" [ for their own office based budget ] by using the 1 lb. netting instead!
Steve