Netting

[PeterIMA]

The problem with getting the "right" barrier netting in the past was that if you buy it from the manufacturer they require a purchase of something like 15,000 feet at a cost of about $8,000. The supplier in Honolulu has purchased it from the Taiwanese manufacturer, and then sells it in 300 foot rolls. Hence, the cost per $300 foot roll is more affordable (although the cost per foot may be higher).

Different groups (hobbyist or industry donors) could fund purchasing the 300 foot rolls from the supplier in Honolulu. Groups like the MAC with sufficient funding can save money by purchasing in bulk from the Tiawanese manufacturer.

PS-The original manufacturer of the 2-lb netting was Tech Nets in Japan. They went out of business.

Peter Rubec

 

[JennM]

If so many collectors in regions other than PI and Indo are using the correct barrier netting, then where are they getting it? Surely there has to be a supply somewhere... otherwise the problem would be a global one.

If it's in that short supply, then why not organize a collective of divers (internationally, if need be) to pool resources... surely among everyone, enough cash and necessity could be pooled to merit a run of the right material.

It just strikes me as odd that in other places, they seem to be able to get the right netting - why is it such an issue for PI?

Jenn

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Exporters in the Philippines are getting barrier nets and providing with them to "their" collectors. Those nets are available in the region. Is possible that the available nets are not the best, but one thing is for sure , is better to use those nets than using cyanide.

 

[JennM]

You missed my point though, Jaime. If collectors in Australia, the Solomons and elsewhere are using the correct barrier netting, where are THEY getting it? Is there only one part-time producer of the stuff in the entire world? Where are the Aussies getting theirs?

Surely there has to be another source of the stuff... if it's that precious of a commodity, perhaps I'm in the wrong business...

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Jenn,
In Hawaii the netting has been hiding in plain sight for 40 years or so.
In Australia the netting has been hiding in plain sight for nearly the same amount of time.
Others in Fiji or Mexico or the Solomons get it thru commercial dealers and commercial connections.
We all know how to do this and always have.
There has never been a week when this was not true.

Now....if reform groups for the past decades cannot seem to find it, it must be for lack of friends and familiarity in the very industry they seek to 'save' on our behalf.
This is quite an indictment of those pretending to be expert enough to effect change but not expert enough to look in the Honolulu yellow pages under...are you ready for a major revelation???
DRUM ROLL please.... " fishing supplies".
There, now my big secret is out...
Steve

 

[JennM]

Please forgive my ignorance then... I'm not asking the question facaetiously... but if the stuff is that easy to come by, why is the cost so prohibitively high? I read in other threads that to get the manufacturer to retool his machines to run a batch of this stuff, it costs upwards of $15-18,000 or whatever figure was kicked around in another thread.

If the stuff is common... then why can't it be bought in smaller quantities, or in several batches as funds are raised?

Speaking as a complete lay-person here, some of this stuff is very confusing.

Jenn

 

[clarionreef]

Jenn,
We [AMDA]...BOUGHT 900 BUCKS WORTH AND OUTFITTED 100 DIVERS WITH IT ALREADY.
It was already written up plenty after the M.O. conference in Hawaii last Feb.
To buy a huge amount...yes there is a minimum run. To buy a $9.00 piece for a diver there is no minimum.
As I wrote in Feb....the Hawaiian stuff has come down in price to be close to the giant volume purchase price already!
It could easily be bought and deployed to any and all sincere enough to do it!
Any group with a payroll behind this issue should have already bought em out!
But the dis-connect between commercial intelligence and NGO intelligence on this matter is huge!
This is perhaps because in commercial life, the diver is undeniably significant as the initiator of the trade in ornamentals. We have to pay attention to him and insure he has the tools.
In professional eco-dev groups I think the poor fisherman has been minimized and too much attention paid to the so-called 'big picture'.
In the non village approach to reform...ie. the top-down, demand side approach, the diver has never been much of a priority.
To me, it starts with the diver. If it doesn't start clean...it doesn't get clean later.
This is why I have frontloaded the fisherman in all my concern with this topic...for 25 years.
Steve

 

[mkirda]

Mary, Steve was not criticizing the hand netting (which is 1/4 inch square mesh without knots). He was referring to 3/8th inch stretched mesh knotted 1-lb test barrier netting (the Chinese netting from Tiawan that tears easily) versus 1/4" stretched mesh knotted 2-lb barrier netting (also from Taiwan but only in large quantities). I had the opportunity to closely view both at the MO Conference in Honolulu in March. Both types of barrier netting were on sale at a store in Honolulu in quantities that were affordable.

Peter,

Don't forget the weave. How the net gathers underwater is extremely important. The weave should be vertical, so that the net gathers easily from one end to the other. 1/4" stretched mesh knotted 2-lb barrier netting with the wrong direction weave is practically useless.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Please forgive my ignorance then... I'm not asking the question facaetiously... but if the stuff is that easy to come by, why is the cost so prohibitively high? I read in other threads that to get the manufacturer to retool his machines to run a batch of this stuff, it costs upwards of $15-18,000 or whatever figure was kicked around in another thread.

If the stuff is common... then why can't it be bought in smaller quantities, or in several batches as funds are raised?

Speaking as a complete lay-person here, some of this stuff is very confusing.

Jenn

Jenn,

It is and it isn't. Steve did legwork earlier and the amounts I had quoted are taken from his earlier posts, private e-mails, and conversations. When you looked at buying enough for a 1000+ divers, buying it retail was prohibitively expensive. They worked it out with the original manufacturer, and setting up the machines and doing a minimum run was expensive, but yielded far more net.

When the amounts were too high to be realistically available without grants or input (cash) from an NGO, the only choice was to go retail.
The freight was free as it was luggage for a returning Indonesian.

The question is: Do you want to supply barrier nets for 10, 100, or 1,000?
If the answer is 1,000, you are better off going direct to the manufacturer.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

1) What types of nets are there and what are they used for? (ie what's the difference between barrier and hand netting)

2) Why is it so hard to get the right netting? It seems that of there is an entore industry out there needing it, someone would pop up and supply it. And why do the fisherman continue to use it if it is wrong?

First:
1) Hand nets
2) Sorting nets
3) Butterfly nets
4) Barrier nets

#1 and #3 use the plastic netting that the MSI fund supplied in great abundance.
#2 are generally hand-made using monofiliment.
#4 - These are the nets Steve makes the big deal about.

Second question:
It isn't at all hard to get ahold of. The cheap barrier netting is readily available. It isn't 'wrong' so much as that it is of inferior quality. Filipinos being what they are, they make do with it. Some actually weave their own nets off-season.
The question is whether or not they need the premium quality netting material. Steve had made it very clear that the answer in his mind is yes. And I have no doubt that the average net fisherman, given the choice between the two, would choose the premium quality netting material if it was given to him. It is not, however, readily available to them.

The real question though is whether a net fisherman could catch more fish with the premium quality net than the lesser quality net. I'm not sure that it will really make that much of a difference. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for supplying them with the better quality net! But I have to wonder if the level of energy expended on this single, seemingly minor, issue could not have been better spent elsewhere? It has been pointed out that the cheaper net will rip easily on corals. Filipino high technology has solved that aspect - They add a few inch strip of the nylon mesh netting at the bottom of the net as the nylon mesh is far stronger. And although it is visible, being that it hugs the bottom, the fish don't perceive it anyway.
The cheaper net is something that they use on a daily basis, and it works.

I think Dave hit the larger issue on the head- Getting cyanide divers to switch requires that they learn a new set of skills, and it requires some innate skill and problem solving ability. They have to know the fish better than the fish know themselves, and they have to know the reef. All the holes, all the hiding spots, etc. If they don't 'get it', they are going to go back to what they know. After all, they gotta eat. Giving them Cadillac nets ain't gonna stop them.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Mike,
As every commercial collector knows who ever got a chance to to compare the nets for themselves;

1 lb netting is for 'show' and for NGOs. Its very expensive as it needs to be replaced constantly. It tears easily, tears off the little strip on the bottom too easily and forces a loss of collecting revenue as the diver is topside cursing in the boat quite often thruout the day.
It also shreds the fishes fins and causes them to be rejected...another terrible waste and cost of this stuff.
It costs 4 bucks a shank and needs to be replaced 5-6 times a year making it expensive!

2 lb netting is to feed your family with...and for a long time. It is much cheaper as it delivers value and effectiveness for a whole year.

The reasons therefore to promote the 1 lb net have nothing to do with helping the divers or converting them. The 'false NGO netting' causes them to backslide to cyanide and continue to kill coral for a living. It is not efficient, economic, humanitarian or environmental....
Steve

 

[Fish_dave]

Steve,

I agree with you wholeheartedly that if buying new net and you have the choice go with the good stuff, the 2 lb test. However I do not think that we should be making such a big deal out of one type of net is terrible and only the 2 lb will do. I have used the cheap stuff before, it does work and I have seen many divers use it sucessfully. If the 2 lb is not available then use the cheap stuff and just get to work is my motto. My divers would certainly use the cheap stuff rather than not have any net at all to work with. There are things that you can do to keep the cheap net working, always rinse it in fresh water at the end of the day, attach a 5 - 6 inch piece of super strong nylon fiber type net to the bottom where most coral contact is made, and make an effort to keep it out of direct sunlight. With a little care the cheap stuff does work pretty good. Maybe the philippine divers are a little spoiled and only want to work with the Mercedes of nets but the rest of us can make do with an old chevy if we need to.

Don't take this as an attack against your net, I agree, if there is a choice get the good stuff every time. It is just that I do not understand why we should focus negative energy against any type of net. The cheap net is much better than no net at all. From what I understand the MAC supplied NO net. If they are going to supply net then by all means get them the info for the good 2 lb net. The cheap net can work, I have used it and have seen a lot of it work. Cheap net is much better than no net and juice.

Dave

 

[clarionreef]

Understood,
But the cheap net has driven so many back to the juice!
It has ruined so many fish and doesn't last well at all.

There is an assumption here however that since the available grant money will always be used on office or other concerns...that there will always be a need to minimize the fundamental tools of the poor fisherman.
What is so important as to veto the real netting and substitute the flimsey stuff that doesn't last long?
The assumption is exactly this;
Since the heads of the NGO will never make fisherman a priority, there will never be enough in the budget for the $8.00 stuff once a year.
Therefore we must buy him the $4.00 stuff and replace it 5 X a year.
That makes a mockery of logic and makes the cheap stuff very expensive.
Steve
PS. By the logic of giving "ultra care" for the fin slicing cheap stuff...
you would then extend the life even futher of the good stuff as well.
The 8 dollar net is way cheaper then cyanide per year....looking to spend more money per year to keep the divers working w/ the flimsey stuff makes no sense.
If the simplest notions of appropriate netting materials are brushed aside....how on earth do the more involved notions of training methodology get thru?
Shoddy, unneccessarily cheap tools in this case are more expensive....to the diver, to the reefs and to the loss of torn and cut up fishes.
But, to the purchasing agent of say a $12.00 tire...I guess it looks like a savings to those that don't have to use them themselves.
Steve

 

[Fish_dave]

Steve,

I agree with you, buy the good stuff when at all possible. I just felt that negative energy was being used to promote the idea that only the good stuff will work.

In the past I have had times when I could not find the good netting and I had to make do with other types. I have used 1/2 inch stretch, 1 lb test, 2 lb test, .17 selvage, net with the stretch going the wrong direction, virtually any type of net that we could find. The net that you are promoting is the best, it is what we all want. My point was that other types of net can be made to work and I have no patience with catchers going back to juice just because they are unhappy about the type of net they have to work with. A good collector can make do with the cheap net and still catch fish without juice. If he is damaging fish with the cheap net then he needs to spend more time repairing his net. It is the small holes in the net that damage the fish not the net itself. In my experience there is not much (if any) difference in the quality of fish caught with 1 lb net and with 2 lb net if both nets are in good condition. The poor quality fish come when the net starts to degrade and is not in top condition which does occur much more rapidly with the 1 lb net. Keep the nets in good condition and the fish will be in good condition.

Bottom line is if anyone is going to spend money on netting there is now no excuse to by the cheap 1 lb net. Get the good stuff, it is worth what little extra it will cost plus it will make Steve real happy.

Dave

 

[clarionreef]

Thank you David,
But it would actually make 100% of the divers happier.
The big difference in running YOUR collecting teams in the Solomons and distributing to free lancer divers in the Philippines and Indo is that the Filipino ' Indo guys have a fall-back...cyanide where the Solomons guys don't.
Plus, the more your guys do small fish, the gentler they hit the net. Still, a lot do get gilled from the constant supply of holes that open up easier from day one.
On bigger fish, the fins flay and tear and the mucous slime on the body scrapes off in swaths the thinner the diameter of the twine.
Everywhere people will make do...if they must. This goes without saying. But there are at least two countries where they have a 'fall-back' option when frustrated and thats where the point of sparing coral heads from squirts of poison comes in.
Whatever gets them off that more easily is a vital part of the conversion process and to INTENTIONALLY inhibit their incentive to change is not humanitarian or environmental.
Lets save money everywhere we can by all means. Is this the only place to cut? But... since the good netting is more durable anyway, its still cheaper!
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

There are many good fishermen working with what has been available for them. They have been doing it for years. If a fisherman is good at what he does, he'll get good quality fish with the 1 lb or the 2 lb net. A good fisherman knows how to use and take care of his nets. Responsible collectors know that they have to bring good quality fish to the exporters facilities otherwise the fish will be rejected during screening , they know that screeners are very exigent.

I wouldn't say that fisherfollks backslide to cyanide because of the quality of the nets. There are other more important reasons such as cheap price of the fish and no economic incentive from the industry to reward those making the extra effort of using nets. It is very possible that collectors do not have the inclination to take care and repair their nets due to the mentioned factors. A careless and uncommitted collector wouldn't give a damn about the quality of the net.

I am not against getting better material for collectors. I just wanted to point out that there are good and bad collectors.

 

[Fish_dave]

Steve,

I agree with your points. Hopefully anyone thinking of purchasing netting that has seen these posts will now buy the good 2 lb test net.

Could you clarify what it is called to have the net stretch the right way ? I have bought net that was wrong and it was useless. I don't know what you call it. If you purchase net that is enough meshes deep then you can cut it either way and make it work but there must be a name or definition for what we want. What do you call it to get the stretch to go the correct way ?

Dave

 

[clarionreef]

LENGTHWISE...
You want the mesh to stretch lenghthwise.
Or you can ask for Tropical fish netting.
At the various Honolulu fishermans supply shops there is not even much thinking involved.
The correct nettings are all there hanging off the racks and the incorrect ones are not there...ie the hieghtwise netting material.

There was even a piece of bait net ie. the 1 lb. stuff and we asked the salesman if anyone ever used it.
"Of course not" was the answer.
Steve