Actually I meant Tonga...... [Royal Tonga Airlines} Walts station in Tonga has much nicer rock then his station in Fiji. Yet now He cant get this nicer rock out of Tonga due to the lack of space [air freight] The MarKet price of Fiji rock has come down to almost cost. With little profit in Fiji rock and no way to get more of the Tonga rock to market ..........Walt has little competitive edge over the many competing rock exporters. What better way of gaining his strong hold again then by eliminating the wild rock market all to together.
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HR 4928 will ban the import of live rock
- Thread starter naesco
- Start date
Kalk,
You are right Royal Tongan did fold but as they did not own a plane other than their domestic twin otters it really did not mean much. Air Pacific stills flies to Tonga with their 737-800. Air New Zealand also flies there along with Polynesian airlines
I get all of the Tonga rock that I can take from Walt. He has plenty, if you need some you should contact him. Walt has offered to teach the other Fiji exporters what he does to make his cultured rock. He does it in the open right behind his facility, there is no secret about it. He is willing to make the concession to stop the live rock in Fiji simply to help stop the environmental perceptions that people have about the wild live rock collection in Fiji. Studies have shown it to be sustainable, common sense would lead one to believe it is sustainable, yet there are large numbers of people (some in this industry - read Eric Borneman - ) who insist that it is not sustainable and should be stopped. Walt knows that he will lose business if the wild rock trade is stopped in Fiji. Other countries will still be shipping rock so there will still be price pressure on Fiji to be competetive on the rock price. The cultured rock costs more to produce than wild collection. Walt will lose business if the wild rock is stopped and he is well aware of this. Still he is willing to do it (and is actually asking for a phase out of wild rock) as a concession to the nay sayers and to show that this industry is willing to work towards an acceptable environmental solution.
As a little commercial plug, if Kalk can not get the rock that he wants from Tonga I do have rock available from the Solomons every two weeks. Boxes are around 45 kilos and it is somewhat similar to good Tonga rock.
Dave
You are right Royal Tongan did fold but as they did not own a plane other than their domestic twin otters it really did not mean much. Air Pacific stills flies to Tonga with their 737-800. Air New Zealand also flies there along with Polynesian airlines
I get all of the Tonga rock that I can take from Walt. He has plenty, if you need some you should contact him. Walt has offered to teach the other Fiji exporters what he does to make his cultured rock. He does it in the open right behind his facility, there is no secret about it. He is willing to make the concession to stop the live rock in Fiji simply to help stop the environmental perceptions that people have about the wild live rock collection in Fiji. Studies have shown it to be sustainable, common sense would lead one to believe it is sustainable, yet there are large numbers of people (some in this industry - read Eric Borneman - ) who insist that it is not sustainable and should be stopped. Walt knows that he will lose business if the wild rock trade is stopped in Fiji. Other countries will still be shipping rock so there will still be price pressure on Fiji to be competetive on the rock price. The cultured rock costs more to produce than wild collection. Walt will lose business if the wild rock is stopped and he is well aware of this. Still he is willing to do it (and is actually asking for a phase out of wild rock) as a concession to the nay sayers and to show that this industry is willing to work towards an acceptable environmental solution.
As a little commercial plug, if Kalk can not get the rock that he wants from Tonga I do have rock available from the Solomons every two weeks. Boxes are around 45 kilos and it is somewhat similar to good Tonga rock.
Dave
I can get all the rock I need out of Tonga{but I wish the red and white Tonga boxes fit in an L-2 better. I can fit 42 indo boxes but only 12 tonga boxes! ......Walt is the one that cant increase exports out of Tonga. Not unless he puts it on Air Alaska and lets the rock set in the cold for 48 hours :wink: Or howbout the brainstorm to export rock out of Fiji in a refrigertion cargo box ? If airspace out of Fiji during the tourist season is not an issue then why would he get a notion to ship live rock in a dark Cargo container for three weeks on a ocean bound ship? :wink: Actually I currently like Vanuatu rock . Dave if you send some blue zoos with the Solomon rock ......I can take an L-2 out of LAX each week. :wink:
As a retailer the Aqua rock in Fiji is too heavy .......its twice the cost per cubic inch. Compared to nice wild rock. That makes it too expensive for the hobbyists. It costs 600 bucks to fill a 60 gallon tank if the rock is 5 bucks a pound retail. Yet with this pink aquarock it would cost over a thousand bucks to fill the tank with the same volume of rock structure . Thats a big difference. Plus if the rock has to make it to the east coast ...there is usually very little that remains alive with this rock. Most hobbyists would rather spend 2 bucks a pound for dry base rock and let the dry rock aquaculture in there own tank. I like what walt has tried to accomplish with his aquacultured stuff in Fiji but its just not jiving with the buying public on the east coast ..........Not with truely fresh alive aquaculture rock availible out of Fla.
Sorry Kalk but you are wrong on your cubic figures. The aquaculture rock from Walt is sent in the exact same size box as the Fiji premium and it is filled with the same volume of rock and sold by Walt at the same price as wild. If your assumptions were correct then the box would be half the size of the wild boxes for the price.
Dave
Dave
Since 1994, live rock has been collected at Malomalo for Ocean 2000 by the traditional male users of the reef, both on a full time and an occasional basis. The rock is reimbursed for $US0.70 per kilogram, which is divided among the collectors ($US0.50), the custodian ($US0.10), and the marine reserve that forms part of the village’s traditional fishing grounds ($US0.10). Full-time harvesters extract up to 200kg per week. At an average of 150kg live rock per week, some 7500kg are extracted for sale by a single full time harvester in a year, contributing $US3750 to the annual household income.
If we use the WWF figures above it looks like Walt would have to buy the cement, sand, dye, etc. and then make the rock, and haul it out and back for under 32 cents a pound to make the same profit he makes on the wild rock. Is cement produced in Fiji or does it have to be shipped in?
Mitch
If we use the WWF figures above it looks like Walt would have to buy the cement, sand, dye, etc. and then make the rock, and haul it out and back for under 32 cents a pound to make the same profit he makes on the wild rock. Is cement produced in Fiji or does it have to be shipped in?
Mitch
Were talking about the pink cement stuff? I guess it depends on what wild rock your comparing it to ? Your average Fiji rock is the most heavy rock to begin with . ..... Although your right about the price having come down on the pink stuff.......from last tIme I ordered some. Wonder why that is? :wink: If Fijians were truely ripping apart the reef in Fiji..........the rock would not be so easy to compare to cement boulders..............
Mitch,
Walt gets a pallet of cement delivered to the Fiji warehouse daily in Fiji. I do not know if the cement is produced in Fiji or not but he does buy it locally and does not import it himself. In the Solomons the cement is imported from Papua New Guinea. The price of the aqua cultured rock is low right now when compared to the wild collected rock. It is a product that Walt wants to sell and believes in so he is producing it at or below cost right now to try and get some market acceptance. ERI sells a ton of Walt's cultured rock. Pacific Aqua Farms has not sold much, maybe 5 or 10 boxes in the last month. The fact that I have not sold much of it does not change the fact that I think that it is a good idea and that Walt is doing the right thing.
Kalk,
A lot has changed since you last bought rock from Walt. Millie is now at Sea Dwelling Creatures and Walt no longer owns Pacific Aqua Farms.
Dave
Walt gets a pallet of cement delivered to the Fiji warehouse daily in Fiji. I do not know if the cement is produced in Fiji or not but he does buy it locally and does not import it himself. In the Solomons the cement is imported from Papua New Guinea. The price of the aqua cultured rock is low right now when compared to the wild collected rock. It is a product that Walt wants to sell and believes in so he is producing it at or below cost right now to try and get some market acceptance. ERI sells a ton of Walt's cultured rock. Pacific Aqua Farms has not sold much, maybe 5 or 10 boxes in the last month. The fact that I have not sold much of it does not change the fact that I think that it is a good idea and that Walt is doing the right thing.
Kalk,
A lot has changed since you last bought rock from Walt. Millie is now at Sea Dwelling Creatures and Walt no longer owns Pacific Aqua Farms.
Dave
Dave,
Walt is quite a guy. I'll never forget the slides he showed at the Ft. Worth MACNA of the native Fijians thanking the Gods for the jobs Walt brought to their island. I doubt the cultured rock will ever sell good around here unless it stays about the same price and the rest of the wild harvested supplies get cutoff. I would have to think that taking real live rock, or cultured that had been in the oceans for a pretty good while, would be equally hard on the little critters that lived under and around it. I guess I don't understand how taking the cultured rock is morally superior to the sustainable harvest of regular live rock. Is the live rock taken out and individually placed where it does the least harm, or is it just dumped in certain areas. I remember seeing his video and it seems like he was really doing things right when harvesting the acropora frags for growout. I didn't get a chance to catch his lecture the past couple of years at MACNA. God bless Walt Smith. :wink:
Walt is quite a guy. I'll never forget the slides he showed at the Ft. Worth MACNA of the native Fijians thanking the Gods for the jobs Walt brought to their island. I doubt the cultured rock will ever sell good around here unless it stays about the same price and the rest of the wild harvested supplies get cutoff. I would have to think that taking real live rock, or cultured that had been in the oceans for a pretty good while, would be equally hard on the little critters that lived under and around it. I guess I don't understand how taking the cultured rock is morally superior to the sustainable harvest of regular live rock. Is the live rock taken out and individually placed where it does the least harm, or is it just dumped in certain areas. I remember seeing his video and it seems like he was really doing things right when harvesting the acropora frags for growout. I didn't get a chance to catch his lecture the past couple of years at MACNA. God bless Walt Smith. :wink:
Mitch,
I get the idea that many people think that I am Walt's yes man. That is pretty far from the truth, we differ on much more than we agree on. I do give credit where I think that it is due though. Walt has put a lot of money and effort into this aquaculture thing when it would have been much more profitable to stay away from it. Bottom line is that it takes a lot of the heat off from our industry whether the underlying scientific facts of wild sustainability support the necessity or not. None of the other exporters in Fiji are willing to spend the money for a project that helps our industry seem more eco friendly.
From a money and a sustainability standpoint it just does not make any sense to aquaculture acropora species or live rock, but the perceived value from the outside and eco types is of great value. I started doing coral culture in the Solomons years ago, starting around 1995. It cost money to do it, quite a bit more than I was ever able to recover from selling them. The attention that I got and good will from eco sustainability types was worth more than it cost. It was cool being the only guy at the time doing it also but it did not pay for itself. If I could have kept doing it at the rate it had develped to in 1999 I think that I could have eventually turned a profit. Indonesia is doing it now large scale and at a greater price than I was able to get.
Anyway Mitch I am rambling on here without really addressing your post. I agree with you that there are issues with both methods. For me having been in the position of doing wild rock collection and seeing what Walt does with his aqua culture I would have to say that if asked which I would chose from an eco standpoint I would choose the aqua culture. It is not free of problems, any time you do anything to change the ocean, even flat sand beds, you have an issue. Something lives everywhere out there and as soon as we change it we have made an impact. Is it better to raise cows for slaughter for food or to kill a wild animal for food. Different folks have different answers to that question. Both methods have a negative side. I still collect wild live rock in the Solomons and I do not have an issue with the sustainability of the collection. But I also think what Walt is doing with the cultured rock is good for the industry and there are a lot of people out there that feel differently from me and will feel more comfortable buying his aqua cultured rock.
Dave
I get the idea that many people think that I am Walt's yes man. That is pretty far from the truth, we differ on much more than we agree on. I do give credit where I think that it is due though. Walt has put a lot of money and effort into this aquaculture thing when it would have been much more profitable to stay away from it. Bottom line is that it takes a lot of the heat off from our industry whether the underlying scientific facts of wild sustainability support the necessity or not. None of the other exporters in Fiji are willing to spend the money for a project that helps our industry seem more eco friendly.
From a money and a sustainability standpoint it just does not make any sense to aquaculture acropora species or live rock, but the perceived value from the outside and eco types is of great value. I started doing coral culture in the Solomons years ago, starting around 1995. It cost money to do it, quite a bit more than I was ever able to recover from selling them. The attention that I got and good will from eco sustainability types was worth more than it cost. It was cool being the only guy at the time doing it also but it did not pay for itself. If I could have kept doing it at the rate it had develped to in 1999 I think that I could have eventually turned a profit. Indonesia is doing it now large scale and at a greater price than I was able to get.
Anyway Mitch I am rambling on here without really addressing your post. I agree with you that there are issues with both methods. For me having been in the position of doing wild rock collection and seeing what Walt does with his aqua culture I would have to say that if asked which I would chose from an eco standpoint I would choose the aqua culture. It is not free of problems, any time you do anything to change the ocean, even flat sand beds, you have an issue. Something lives everywhere out there and as soon as we change it we have made an impact. Is it better to raise cows for slaughter for food or to kill a wild animal for food. Different folks have different answers to that question. Both methods have a negative side. I still collect wild live rock in the Solomons and I do not have an issue with the sustainability of the collection. But I also think what Walt is doing with the cultured rock is good for the industry and there are a lot of people out there that feel differently from me and will feel more comfortable buying his aqua cultured rock.
Dave
Dave,
I enjoy the straight Southern style approach you bring to the Industry forum. We can all agree that Walt began as a lowly cherry picker and worked his way to the top. I'm not sure if any US importer can honestly claim to have made more money off marinelife than Walt. I'm happy Walt has choosen to give something back. If anyone ever decides to write a tell all history of the marine ornamentals industry in United States, I'm certain Walt will be a prominent character in the book. :wink:
I enjoy the straight Southern style approach you bring to the Industry forum. We can all agree that Walt began as a lowly cherry picker and worked his way to the top. I'm not sure if any US importer can honestly claim to have made more money off marinelife than Walt. I'm happy Walt has choosen to give something back. If anyone ever decides to write a tell all history of the marine ornamentals industry in United States, I'm certain Walt will be a prominent character in the book. :wink:
Actually, Thats about the same price the cement industry pays for live rock . They grind it up to make whats know as Portland cement. Did you know that the cement industry grinds up more wet old growth coral rock in one day then our hobby exports for the intire year?.............................................................................................. Or that the Airport in the Maldives used actual wet reef structure [live rock ] to create an island to land tourist planes {the size of a jumbo jet airstrip.] this project used more then 1000 times more live rock then our hobby collects in a single year ....But the removal of the surrounding reefs has left a nice deep channel that the holiday cruise ship can dock close to land................................................................................................. Or how bout the fact that Hawaii has removed more live rock from its beaches {to allow tourist to have nice sandy beaches to play } then our hobby has removed in Fiji in its twenty year span. .................................Growing your own liverock from dry base rock is fun .......But dont think that you dont still owe something to the reefs from which your brood stock originated. Unless you offer the natives whom are in charge of their reefs a viable alternative to farming it for our trade. Then you force the natives of Fiji to sell their product to another industry?beaslbob":2n34w868 said:OMG
What's this industry gonna do.
Especially when us hobbiests discover that limestone rock is quarried for $20/ton
:shock:
Ok now I get it. We ban the collection of live rock for the aquarium trade and then the rock will go to the cement makers. Walt then buys the ground up live rock in the form of cement and makes cultured rock. People like Wayne rush to buy the recycled rock thinking they have saved a reef. :roll:
Mitch
Mitch
Mitch, You forgot the fact that to make lime they need to heat limestone rock to create lime (the main component in cement). To do this, they need wood. On Marinduque Island (southern Luzon) they cut down the mangroves for fuel to make cement.
Now they have two problems, a) depletion of the live rock and/or terrestrial limestone, and b) destruction of the mangroves.
Peter
Now they have two problems, a) depletion of the live rock and/or terrestrial limestone, and b) destruction of the mangroves.
Peter
Hey, You are supposed to be nice!!!dizzy":6duar372 said:Ok now I get it. We ban the collection of live rock for the aquarium trade and then the rock will go to the cement makers. Walt then buys the ground up live rock in the form of cement and makes cultured rock. People like Wayne rush to buy the recycled rock thinking they have saved a reef. :roll:
Mitch
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