House Bill HR 4928

[clarionreef]

we read...
"the trade is mostly incapable of reforming itself"...

Well, since the MAC has been sleeping with the worst offenders in this trade for a long time... thats absolutely hilarious!
Its practically a common-law marriage!
I would say at the very least there is a situation of knowing complicity and culpability here.
Steve

 

[John_Brandt]

Dinosaurs, conspiracy theorists, egomaniacs, propagandists and nutballs. Why did I waste keystrokes in this forum?

 

[dizzy]

John,
You stayed up late and then you posted a hateful message. I'll bet you didn't sleep to well did you. As the events of the past few years begin to become clearer, I don't see how some of y'all can sleep at all. There is an interesting document in the public domain that explains much of this master plan or conspiracy if you will. Stay tuned.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Dinosaurs, conspiracy theorists, egomaniacs, propagandists and nutballs. Why did I waste keystrokes in this forum?

Because of the hobbyists out here lurking who care John.. - Thank you.

 

[Anonymous]

As far as aquaculture goes it sounds like all facilities will have to be MAC certified. At the very least each facility will have to be approved by the Secretary of Commerse as meeting the qualifications of this legislation. This will effectively make it illegal for the average non-certifed hobbyist to grow frags and trade them. No?

No. According to the exception provisions I posted it would appear that aquaculturists and captive breeders would be able to qualify without MAC certification. Your question is better directed towards wild collection which does not carry the exceptions to the bill that aquaculture and captive breeding does.

Re: Approval by Secretary of Commerce... Did you realize that to drive a vehicle in the US you have to be approved by the Secretary of State and Department of Transportation? Outside of that, driving is universally banned in this country.

I just wonder the Secretary's approval process would be? For hobbyist/cottage business frag propagation would some form of licensing or a registration process become manditory? Would the cottage frag farming operation have to keep documentation to prove that the frags were in fact captive prop and not wild caught? Would there be an inspection process?

I don't think the bill's wording is all that bad. The devil is in the details; how would it would end up being implemented?

 

[dizzy]

Lee,
It is fairly obvious that this is directed toward insuring compliance with Biodiversity taxes. There are something like 5 conferences on this issue scheduled internationally in this calendar year. You can't allow the little guys to circumvent the laws because this would place an undue hardship on the certified aquaculture facilites who are paying their dues. We all probably realize many people will choose to quietly break the law and no one will be the wiser, but it does have the effect of making lawbreakers out of otherwise good citizens.

Grate,
It is one thing to tell a hobbyist he will no longer be able to keep anything rare or unusual. It is another matter entirely to tell someone he can no longer make a honest living doing the same thing they have done for the past 20 years. The tank raised stuff does not sell all that well in our store, despite the fact we raise 4 different species of clowns in house and buy from the big guys as well. This stuff is certainly not the gateway species that make most people want to get into the hobby. The hobby will survive, but a great deal of the wholesalers and retailers who are mainly saltwater will not. I can deal with the coming changes but I will never accept the deception.
Mitch

 

[clarionreef]

Poor John,
Your job is like that of the colonists trying to convince everyone that King George really had their best interests at heart.
Good luck,
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Except that King George in this case is the colonists own government right?

Edit: My point is, as long as the officials deciding this are appraised of the actual consequences do you really believe they will still act in a way to harm the industry and the individual needlessly? - If so, then you likely fit one of the above mentioned groups and are probably off center in your views.

Edit2: Or do you mean MAC is King George? - In that case, perhaps I'm nieve or ignorant, but I don't believe John is pushing MAC at the moment..

 

[clarionreef]

The govt did not come up with this.
It is a totally MAC inspired move to guarantee themselves perpetuation beyond what achievement and talent would warrant.
Nearly all their achievements have been with funders and cohorts...not Filipino or Balinese divers. You know, the ones who catch all the fish.
What 'acceptance' they claim in the trade is based purely on a percieved PR value that comes with collecting stickers, certificates and fluff pieces to show and hang on the wall.
I talk to importers and dealers all the time...John does not. He has but an inkling of how much MAC is laughed at behind his back.
Stateside dealers have been holding their breath for years for the promised CERTIFIED fish supply to go with their PR.
Hawaiian collector/shippers find them ridiculous and the Philippine one...note I said one... merely tolerates them because her stateside buyers wants her to.

By all results, productivity and reality measures, they have long since gone bankrupt...but thru the subsidy of failure and chronic incompetence by outside the trade funders, they are still here.
8.5 million dollars to administer an 8 million dollar white elephant with only a lone service guy to serve as a true believer...?
The day you stop MAC salaries is the same day this 'movement' ends. It is pure business. Eco-business and it aims to cash in on a fish trade without getting wet or work in the ocean.
There is a real need for reform of the collecting and handling practices in this trade. Being slick enough to co-opt the reform movement from real fish people is what has given them the funders monoploy and the exclusive. Now they have the ear of Federal authorites and are using it to threaten the trade to accept them despite their proven incompetence and lack of credentials and talent!
But sending tourists, eco-moonies, service guys and wannabies to do the job is foolhardy and why the fish supply has never been jumpstarted despite all the fallacious quarterly reports of success after success.

Steve
PS. Did you really say you did not believe that John is pushing MAC at the moment?

 

[dizzy]

Edit2: Or do you mean MAC is King George? - In that case, perhaps I'm nieve or ignorant, but I don't believe John is pushing MAC at the moment..

Norm I'm not sure what you mean by nieve, but in many ways your naive as hell.
Mitch

 

[clarionreef]

So,
Its no more Mr. Nice Guy it seems.
This revelation of authoritarian, manipulative, coercive and threatening tactics employed by MAC to force dealers to accept them may well backfire on them.

'Winning' dealers over with a gun at their heads is just plain stupid. Especially in America.

Steve
PS. Let me say this to the current MAC BOD.
Trying to engineer business advantages for yourselves by lending your name to MACs 'gunboat diplomacy' may not sit well with many customers. . . especially if you become targets of a boycott.

 

[Anonymous]

Edit2: Or do you mean MAC is King George? - In that case, perhaps I'm nieve or ignorant, but I don't believe John is pushing MAC at the moment..

Norm I'm not sure what you mean by nieve, but in many ways your naive as hell.
Mitch

More often than not I come here merely for enlightenment. - But whether its for spelling lessons or a higher purpose is usually the biggest unknown.. :wink:

 

[Jaime Baquero]

The status quo is not an option. Collection practices are unsustainable. Just see recent post related to Blue Tangs. The industry did have its chance but it didn't react. As an example, we can get information from the master of trainers about how much money AMDA collected in the last year to help training collectors in the Philippines or somewhere else.

H.R 4928 is a good thing to happen. This is also a good thing for MAC.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

To be more precise about the contribution and willingness of the aquarium industry to help solving critical issues, as is the use of cyanide, lets ask the "master" of trainers, meaning S. Robinson, how much money AMDA has collected since its creation to tackle the issues that have been discussed in this and other forums (collecting, handling and holding) in the last 3 to 5 years.

 

[Anonymous]

:?

Sounds like you already have an inkling there Jaime... - Care to share?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

8O

Just wait to see Robinson's response. The numbers will speak by themselves.

 

[dizzy]

One more point about this law. If it is passed no one will be able to collect marine aquarium fish from Florida (or other states) anymore, unless they get an exemption. Proving sustainability could take years. Aquarium clubs collecting fish that get caught in the Gulf Stream and pulled North to die would be breaking the law if they collected them. I guess it would also effect harvesting gorgonias until they are proven to be sustainable. This law raises tons of questions. At least the Hawaiians can still collect the breeder tangs, just as long as they intend on eating them. :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

Huh?
Did Jaime make a point while I was packing fish?
AMDA has now raised and spent over a thousand dollars of the right kind of barrier netting that so eluded others including MAC til this year...by their own admission.
Pressure and dialogue from us embarrassed them to finally get some barrier netting to go with their 5 year multi million dollar schemes.
ALL this netting is currently in use. Not wharehoused and not missing.
We futher defined and revealed where to get the hand netting material...also lost during a decade of 'incomplete' trainings thruout Asia.
MSI and Reef Central ran with that campaign before we were going to...but the upshot is that there are now miles of it in the Philippines.
I just told the secretary of the Philippine exporters assoc. secretary where to also secure the right kind of nets because she couldn't get them thru MAC.
Now, INSTEAD OF WAITING FOR NGOS SHE CAN IMPORT HER OWN whenever she likes..
We have effectively broken the logjam in enabling netting materials of the right kind, mesh size and thickness for training programs this past year.
Let us know what you've been doing Jaime?
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

This is do or die for MAC .....If this bill fails, its over . The entire industry hates them now ...... And even if this bill passes ....... they will be sued out of existance...........for making up lies about the industy. Its over MAC , one way or another and you know it . Attempting to take the hobby down with you is quite ill.

 

[clarionreef]

Right you are Kalk,
It reminds me of the church burning scene in Mel Gibsons 'The Patriot" when the camera panned to the American colonist who joined the redcoats and squealed on his own people for a little acceptance and reward.
There will always be a few service guys who do not see the light until the church burns.
Steve

PS. Pardon me for getting it right about them from the very first post.