Tonga thread on RC

[Anonymous]

Not to open the can of worms again (hell, I'll just stop reading this thread if the old issues get revived here again) but.......

I gotta say I'm more than a little disappointed in how right most of you are about how the average hobbyist only gives a rats about landing a hot cherry pick at a cool price and the hell with the rest.

Anyway... - I made a request on RC that I KNOW will just fade in the dust of "WAAAAH! - I wanted those corals to come here".. :roll:

Steve.. - Anyone... - It won't do anything more than sate my curiousity at this point, but could someone please help point me to where I can get more info on the Tongan harvesting methods / policies? - It sounds like with the rotating zones, they've got a really good thing going and I'd just like to see it a little clearer.. (Like how much area is setup for harvesting, how much regrowth there is in the zones that are being allowed to repopulate..) If they've got a renewable system setup I'd like to learn a little more about it.

Thanx!

Norm

 

[JT]

Norm:

Unfortunately, there isn't much information available online. I found a few Ministries of Fisheries reports from back in the mid-90's but most of it is too old to be useful as it was from a time when coral collection as a whole was not allowed and environmental impact studies were just getting underway to determine whether to recommend coral collection or not. Prior to this report I am referring to, coral colletion was not allowed and fish and live rock made up most of the exports. At the time the report was written, only 2 stations were operating in Tonga; Walt Smith and Dateline. There are now 4 stations with only a maximum of 5 permits available. But, I think Chris Mamalanga with Vanisi might have taken up the 5th permit.

I haven't found any recent documents online yet.

 

[Mike King]

Mitch, Jt,
I will see what info I can get ahold of from Tonga on coral harvest and regulations it shouldn't be too hard to obtain.


Mike

 

[Mike King]

Opps sorry Norm, It's been a long day... Gov't grant crush time .... crap now Mitch will want a copy too :lol: getting them may take a week or two..... less if I can get them e-mailed.

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks a bunch Mike! - If you're not able to get them electronically maybe I can catch up with you at one of the K-zoo reef club meetings? (I know, could be spotty, that...)

And thanks also JT for looking. - I'll update if I happen to stumble into anything but so far no good..

 

[Fish_dave]

Well I saw the second Tonga shipment that was supposed to go to these guys. It was at LAX and it looked grim. Many boxes crushed with bags falling out of some boxes. It was supposed to be transferred to Southwest airlines for onward shipping but I do not think that Southwest would accept these boxes. I bet that Jeff's exotic fish ended up with another unexpected shipment last night, I think that the shipment would have to be terminated in L.A. due to box condition.

Dave

Why does this generally not happen to other shippers / importers ? Does experience matter ?? Someone is going to take a big hit on this shipment.

 

[JT]

That's a real shame Dave. Thanks for the update.

Total lack of experience, 100%. These guys should not be in Tonga, I've said it from the beginning and I'll keep saying it.

Oh well, sorry to Norm. He didn't want us bringing this stuff back up but it needed to be said.

 

[Anonymous]

:lol:

Thanks JT, I think my request has gone the length needed. - Hopefully Mike will have something to share with me and ease my curiousity..

So.. - Feel free to have your way with the thread now I guess..

Not that I'm encoraging anything the mods/admins don't want to see...

 

[Anonymous]

That's a real shame Dave. Thanks for the update.

Total lack of experience, 100%. These guys should not be in Tonga, I've said it from the beginning and I'll keep saying it.

Actually this is the first time you said it online. Keep rewriting history though - maybe you can get yourself banned over here as well.

I just finished helping Eddie unpack the shipment at TP. The boxes were crushed from the outside, so I am not sure we can blame anyone but the carrier for that. Some stuff didn't make it, but a whole bunch of phenomenal stuff did. Most of it is being fragged and not sold as colonies.

 

[JT]

so I am not sure we can blame anyone but the carrier for that.

Dave said it best:

"Why does this generally not happen to other shippers / importers ? Does experience matter ??"

The damage Dave described seeing last night is very rare and for it to happen twice in one week, as admitted by Eddie the first shipment was heavily damaged as well, is extremely rare. Something isn't kosher here.

 

[Anonymous]

I was under the impression that bringing in larger colonies and chopping them up was generally frowned upon.

 

[Anonymous]

so I am not sure we can blame anyone but the carrier for that.

Dave said it best:

"Why does this generally not happen to other shippers / importers ? Does experience matter ??"

The damage Dave described seeing last night is very rare and for it to happen twice in one week, as admitted by Eddie the first shipment was heavily damaged as well, is extremely rare. Something isn't kosher here.

Perhaps something did go wrong, but do you really think those involved wouldn't address it so it doesn't happen with the next shipment?
I know on the hobbyist side of the hobby we try to help people that are having a bad time. Wouldn't the hobby be better served if you tried to help instead of jumping to conclusions and attacking?

 

[Anonymous]

I was under the impression that bringing in larger colonies and chopping them up was generally frowned upon.

My understanding is that chopping them down and selling them as propagated is frowned on. Fragging them and selling the frags with complete disclosure of what they are and where they are from seems like a good thing.

 

[Anonymous]

Gotcha. :mrgreen:

 

[Kalkbreath]

There are many reasons why the other 4 collection stations dont collect large shallow water acros........... After ten yeras of collection in Tonga , Do you really think this guy is the first to stumble upon these corals. {there are thousands of large acros in knee deep water evry where on the islands } Finding the small deep water colonies is the hard part............. Are these guys collecting for the curio trade :wink: Also dont the airlines and US WILDLIFE ........ fine exportors which ship over stuffed boxes ? Did they in these two events ?

 

[JT]

but do you really think those involved wouldn't address it so it doesn't happen with the next shipment?

Well Righty, the people Eddie is working with in Tonga (Chris Mamalanga and Vanisi) have tried to be trained correctly in the past but it has never worked out because, quite frankly, they are not trainable. The village is in a remote part of Tonga and, like other island nations, the villagers only want to work when they want to. Usually this is when they run out of cigarettes. There is no incentive for them to work cause they are usually happy living the way they live.

Every couple of years, Chris and Vanisi find a new pigeon in the US to come over and spend money. I want Eddie to be real careful here, many people over the years have invested alot of time and money in Tonga with nothing to show for it in the end.

Dave, haven't you also spent alot of time and money trying to train Tongans?

 

[Anonymous]

Every couple of years, Chris and Vanisi find a new pigeon in the US to come over and spend money. I want Eddie to be real careful here, many people over the years have invested alot of time and money in Tonga with nothing to show for it in the end.

Thanks. That is so much more constructive than the bile you were spitting before. :wink:

 

[Fish_dave]

Yes I have spent considerable time and money with Tonga. Some of it with the Christian in question here. Tonga is problematic, that is why virtually everyone in the business has had a go with one Tongan outfit or another yet it never develops into a major supplier long term. There is a lot of potential there but business there is trouble.

I reveive shipments weekly from Tonga, I would like to do more business with Tonga but there are always issues that make it difficult to do. I think that most every wholesale operation has similar experience with Tonga.

Dave

 

[JT]

Grateful: Don't fret, I'll have the information available shortly. I just need to go to Kinko's and scan it in as I don't have a scanner.

 

[clarionreef]

Tongans from that village are untrainable?
Oh I don't know bout that.
My wifes from that village area and she makes more then I do.

Of course if business people choose...consistantly choose... to hire only divers who like to drink, thats shows a lack of ability to adjust and think critically.
Since the business class can't dive that well, they accept the locals who can ...as well as the baggage they bring. Instead of training non drinking divers, they go w/ the flow and with the same divers who worked for another exporter.
Recycling and re-shuffling the same ol meat-heads is a lot like working with the same wharf rats in Hawaii or the same ol white trash Florida Keys.
Some of the worst fish to ever grace these shores have come from our own ranks.
Theres not a Tongan problem but a Tongan diver/worker selection problem.
As with any culture, there are good and bad.
Not knowing how to choose and teach the right diver candidates is an indictment against the apparently untrainable business people...and has led them to import Filipinos to do the fish collecting.
More enlightened representatives from our side could do a lot better to work out problems on that side.
Steve