Philippine Bureau of Fisheries inaction

[Jaime Baquero]

To all,

I am just answering a question. Please note that at any moment in my response to Righty I used any offensive words against Mr. Robinson. Comments as the ones coming from Greshman are the ones shouldn't be tolerated.

With respect.

Jaime

 

[Anonymous]

Righty,

This is the main reason why nothing has been accomplished in this forum.

You betcha.
what i am unclear about, and please don't take this the wrong way, is if you understand that, why you do it too.

Jamie, righty wasn't really asking you a question, he was trying to jump start you into thinking about what you do to contribute to the problem yourself He wasn't asking for the reason you do things :roll:

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Greshman,

If there was a recognition that previous NGOs did contribute somehow in a positive way to find solutions to the cyanide problem in the Philippines, we could avoid most of the confrontations taking place in this forum. I am not the only one that can not accept that all the blame goes to NGOs. Please do remember that the solution to this problem is more than net training. There are other important components such as environmental education and community organizing, among others, which produced very good results during the implementation of different programs in the Philippines.

A great deal of energy has been wasted because of the lack of recognition of work done by NGOs. Many readers within this forum, an other, have been misleaded and as a result are blaming all NGOs for the lack of final results. Personally, I do think that it is not fair. There is a frustration feeling every time some one attacks or accuse "all" NGOs of inaction.

Please do not forget that the Filipino government and the marine aquarium industry are making a big mistake relying only on NGOs to do their job.

That is my point of view . Someone could think in a different way, but the personal jabs do nothing to help arguments regarding such important issues. In fact, as stated by Righty, "they distract from and trivialize the points made". That is the comment from Righty regarding the response from Mr. Robinson to one of my posts related to "Filipino central government responsibility and the role the marine industry should play".

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Greshman,

I forgot, please stop sending me private and offensive messages.

Righty, how can I forward you private and offensive messages as the one I just got from Greshman?

 

[Anonymous]

Righty,
And to not respond is helpful right?

I have never implied that you, or anyone, shouldn't respond. Like I said, your points are fine, your method is abrasive and hurts your message.

Afterall, keeping the calm on the playground is the main thing and the purpose of the forum.

I would say the main purpose of this forum is making it useful. Petty bickering and name calling hurt your message and make this forum and the industry look foolish.

 

[Anonymous]

Righty,

This is the main reason why nothing has been accomplished in this forum.

You betcha.
what i am unclear about, and please don't take this the wrong way, is if you understand that, why you do it too.

Why? Because Robinson, and others, have been accusing NGOs of lack of positive results. I do not agree with those accusations. NGOs, did and have been doing a good job helping to find solutions to the cyanide problem in the Philippines, problem that was created by this industry..

The results are not what everyone is expecting, meaning the end of cyanide use. Almost everyone in this forum, and others, are pointing NGOs and putting all the responsibility on the shoulders of those NGOs.

I don't think that is fair. Many honest people have worked as volunteers for those NGOs and contributed with thousands of hours and dollars finding solutions to this difficult and complex cause. Many hundreds of fish collectors were trained to use nets instead of cyanide, fishers communities were organized, environmental education kits were produced, excellent community organizers were "produced" by the different programs developed in the Philippines, the quality of fish has improved... and more.
All the above has been done by NGOs without the $ and "legal"(enforcement) support of the Filipino government or the indutry overseas.

I am one of those honest volunteers that worked for many years helping to tackle the problem. I find Steve Robinson and others have been misleading the readers, putting everyone against NGOs. That is wrong.

The main cause for this to happen is that Robinson is not part of the working team. He should understand that he has good knowledge but he fails to deliver his messages and ideas to others because of his behavior and lack of tact. As I said before, it's a shame.

:roll: :roll:

Now if thats not a personal attack, Jim and Rich, I don't know what is. Yet again, RDO just lets it slip on by, business as usual :roll: You can have your forum, if this rubbish is all we're going to get.

You know when a little dog keeps yelping around your feet and after so long you can't take it anymore so you tell it to shut up. When it doesn't do that, you punish it. When it starts up again and again, you finally get frustrated and give the dog a swat? Well, you can't expect Steve not to scold jamie for yelping around his feet


Problem is, nothing happens when, even AFTER you post a warning about personal attacks, jamie quotes that very warning post and proceeds on a personal attack in it :roll:[/b]

I am fresh to moderating this forum, and am still gathering information. I think it is best for everyone to let go of past baggage and look to the future - I am crunched for time right now, but look for a change in the civility warning at the top of this forum in the next couple of weeks.

In the meantime, I suggest everyone work on removing incivility from their own posts, and ignore it when it is in others.

 

[mkirda]

In the meantime, I suggest everyone work on removing incivility from their own posts, and ignore it when it is in others.

The problem is more one of "not being able to agree to disagree".
With Steve and Jaime, the viewpoints could not be more polar opposite, nor their conclusions (based on the experience of one particular NGO).

The drama itself, while interesting for a bit, gets old quickly.
Rather like watching a particularly overly acted soap opera...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

agreed,
So long as your interest is something as trivial as TV,
STEVE

 

[Anonymous]

In the meantime, I suggest everyone work on removing incivility from their own posts, and ignore it when it is in others.

The problem is more one of "not being able to agree to disagree".
With Steve and Jaime, the viewpoints could not be more polar opposite, nor their conclusions (based on the experience of one particular NGO).

I think that is fine. If we all agreed there wouldn't be much to talk about!
It gets icky when the disagreement degrades into petty or personal pot shots - and by icky I mean it trivializes an otherwise important discussion.

 

[clarionreef]

Righty,
In politics, there is a saying that "all politics is local".
Meaning that what people really feel and respond to when discussing the bigger issues are things smaller, more local and relevant to them.

The foray into larger issues sort of validates one as a more global player when ones primary motivation is still the self.

If its true however that people truly care and feel mostly about the self...then it logically follows that the issues will get "personalized and taken more personally."
The notion of a greater good goes out the window when the gloves come off and the only issue remaining is how the big thing related directly to ones own narrower agenda.

If the industry forum is actually about our own smaller, local issues and our money and our ego...and our sliver of relevant experience...and if it all still must filter thru our own agenda and our self interest first....then its bound to eventually whirlpool down to partisan politics.

Its why congress has a pork barrel tradition...to distribute pork to keep others agendas relevant. :?

Thinking for the "greater good" is not a talent or a thing that gets rewarded much and as this is a hobby forum, it seems to me that its even harder.
What could be less interesting or less understood then an airing of trade laundry to non-combatants ie. hobbyists?

And what could be less interesting or less desired then an airing of trade laundry by er...trade or business people?

Hence the need for honest NGOs that can rise above recreational and business interests to foster the greater good.
At least thats the theory anyway.

The observation that NGOs have often behaved as if it was all about them, their career interests, their money and their survival has understandably been an area of concern...if the greater good of the trade, the hobby and the reefs are to be served.
Thats all. :roll:
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Righty,
In politics, there is a saying that "all politics is local".
Meaning that what people really feel and respond to when discussing the bigger issues are things smaller, more local and relevant to them.

The foray into larger issues sort of validates one as a more global player when ones primary motivation is still the self.

If its true however that people truly care and feel mostly about the self...then it logically follows that the issues will get "personalized and taken more personally."

Surely there is a difference between an issue being personalized/being taken personally and ad hominem.

The notion of a greater good goes out the window when the gloves come off and the only issue remaining is how the big thing related directly to ones own narrower agenda.

I don't think that is a necessity.

If the industry forum is actually about our own smaller, local issues and our money and our ego...and our sliver of relevant experience...and if it all still must filter thru our own agenda and our self interest first....then its bound to eventually whirlpool down to partisan politics.

I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with partisan politics. However, I do think everyone involved is hurt when partisan politics is reduced to mud slinging and ad hominem.

Its why congress has a pork barrel tradition...to distribute pork to keep others agendas relevant. :?

Sadly, I don't think that we should try to model ourselves on congress.

Thinking for the "greater good" is not a talent or a thing that gets rewarded much and as this is a hobby forum, it seems to me that its even harder.

I don't find it all that hard.
If thinking for the greater good isn't rewarded much, there are still plenty of reasons to think for the greater good.

What could be less interesting or less understood then an airing of trade laundry to non-combatants ie. hobbyists?

And what could be less interesting or less desired then an airing of trade laundry by er...trade or business people?

I don't think the airing of laundry is what anyone wants. However, the discussion of issues that impact the hobby, possible problems and possible solutions and the marshaling of resources are quite interesting to many in the hobby.

Hence the need for honest NGOs that can rise above recreational and business interests to foster the greater good.

You betcha.

The observation that NGOs have often behaved as if it was all about them, their career interests, their money and their survival has understandably been an area of concern...if the greater good of the trade, the hobby and the reefs are to be served.

You betcha.

Thats all. :roll:

I don't understand what the :roll: is for.

 

[clarionreef]

Righty,
I was reflecting on what actually happens and has happened...over the past decade, not what the ideal 'should be' from a theoretical viewpoint..

Welcome to our road trip...
A dozen people more or less in a VW bus on a desert road trip for several years now.
As often as not, its not even about the issues any more.

A single decent impulse in common; something about reform and saving coral reefs....beyond that, very little in common to keep the tribe together.
You just got in at the last stop and....you are welcome.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Righty,
I was reflecting on what actually happens and has happened...over the past decade, not what the ideal 'should be' from a theoretical viewpoint..

OK - cool.
So far I have only had time for try to establish the 'should be'.

Welcome to our road trip...
A dozen people more or less in a VW bus on a desert road trip for several years now.
As often as not, its not even about the issues any more.

For the sake of the hobby, I'd like that to change.

A single decent impulse in common; something about reform and saving coral reefs....beyond that, very little in common to keep the tribe together.

I'd like that to change as well.

You just got in at the last stop and....you are welcome.
Steve

I think I have been more than clear in person about my appreciation for what you have done for this hobby. I haven't had time to even begin to look at content in this forum. :mrgreen: