Take your pick, Biopiracy or tank acclimated livestock?

[Kalkbreath]

Are corals grown in the sunshine a deceptive product?
Are tanks raised corals grown in the USA a pirated product?
Whats the balance between the two?
On one hand the hobbyists are beneficiaries
On the other hand the reefs benefit?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

My answer to your question is ....biopiracy.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Does that mean you support biopiracy or you dont?

 

[JT]

Anyone who has a half a clue would never support biopiracy.

- JT

 

[coralfarmin]

can we choose both?
I'd love to support the reefs by buying mariculterd as well,but imo wild raised coral are the same as wild collected coral...
I think the majority of hobbyists will choose a larger wild collected coral over a smaller wild raised coral..givin the price is the same
far as captive raised,the fact that they are raised in captivity and have acclimated to captive conditions is why people want them
like artifical water,light(when artifical is used),less than perfect water conditions,artifical current,stronger disease immunitys etc.
so imo the wild raised will not exibit any benifical traits that the captive raised corals are actualy sought after for..this is why they fetch a higher price
If a bill ever passes to stop wild collection then you only have the 2 choices
I want to farm coral inland mainly to keep up a stock of exceptional coral..If I depend on someone else to do this for me where would I be when everyone else jumps on the bandwagon and supply is limited

 

[dizzy]

Your better be careful what you defind as biopiracy. The Asian and American freshwater fish farms that are breeding angelfish, discus, guppies, swordtails, mollies, convicts, African cichlids, etc, etc, will all owe huge reparation payments for non native species. The fish police will be locking up the little boy who brings in guppies to trade with the fish store. Get real people.

 

[coralfarmin]

lets back up to the title

is'nt biopiracy infact when you tank raise stock

so is your title not redundant
dont we only really have one choice in your title?
should your title not read

Take your pick Maricultered or Biopiracy ?

 

[Kalkbreath]

The question is how do you view it ?
Wild dogs are native to Africa...........But they don't make as good a pet as domesticated puppies.
Clearly domesticated corals are the best product for the end consumer.
But, that leaves the owners of the reefs to find another way to make a living from their backyards.

 

[coralfarmin]

ok..but the title reads like there are 2 differant choices...
if biopiracy is infact tank raising stock
you might want to change this for clarity..imo
I understood what you ment anyway(I think)with my summary in my first post

 

[Kalkbreath]

How about mariculture corals
{farming the wild reefs, all the natives are happy so is the reef}........

Farm grown corals then held for a spell under artificial lighting.
{domesticate the wild corals and adjust them to tank life.}

The product the hobbyists take home supports the natives economy

The corals are directly fragged from the reef , thus giving reason to safe guard the heath of the mother colonies and the reef as a whole.

The final product adjusts to aquarium conditions better , because its most recent exposure has been a captive system.


And the best thing about selling F-2 mariculture corals is the infectious smiles that seem to sprout up when selling such an Ecco wonderful product! :wink:

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Does that mean you support biopiracy or you dont?

I do not support biopiracy.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Does that mean you support biopiracy or you dont?

I do not support biopiracy.

One of the major problems this trade has is that "the profits" always go to all the links of the chain, but the poor fish collector or the coral reefs. Here in Ottawa a piece of propagated in captivity coral can be sold for $49 or more. No one cent of that money goes back to the collector or a program to protect coral reefs. Propagating corals in captivity is a way for people to make money to the expenses of the coral reefs. "Protecting the coral reefs" in many cases is just the marketing tool.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Does that mean you support biopiracy or you dont?

I do not support biopiracy.

One of the major problems this trade has is that "the profits" always go to all the links of the chain, but the poor fish collector or the coral reefs. Here in Ottawa a piece of propagated in captivity coral can be sold for $49 or more. No one cent of that money goes back to the collector or a program to protect coral reefs. Propagating corals in captivity is a way for people to make money to the expenses of the coral reefs. "Protecting the coral reefs" in many cases is just the marketing tool.

 

[coralfarmin]

stable 2nd 3rd 4th and up generation captive raised corals are more guarnteed to survive and thrive in captivity..since they have already proven to be stable

Maricultered are a shot in the dark far as being known to stabilize and grow rapidly in captivity...since they are actuly still wild

I think people want captive raised because they have already proven themselfs to be stable and disease resistant..if aquired from a true farmer and not a chop shop

I agree that it dont really help the reefs any but its what people seem to want ..imo
You cant make people buy maricultered if they dont really want them..I had a long talk with a well know wholesaler mariculterest a few years back on this subject...he told me he spent a fortune on his mariculter farm and they are just sitting out in the ocean because no one will buy them..on the scale he anticipated

 

[dizzy]

I'm not exactly sure what kalk's definition of a domesticated coral is, but I don't think we will ever be able to teach them to fetch or jump through hoops. :wink:

As a retailer I find people make their purchases based on price and color. They are not interested in origins. IME closed system culturing has bought about the proliferation of many problem hitchhikers. i.e. planaria, dictyota, valonia, red acropora bugs, rice snails, and so on.

Closed system aquaculture has shown us which species adapt the best, but this does not mean those same species cannot be grown successful, and very competively in countries of origin in open systems. The global marketplace has shown us that the Asian people can be very good at competing and I don't see mariculture/domesticating being any different. This worry about biopiracy is a big to do about nothing IMO.
Mitch

 

[coralfarmin]

I agree dizzy that the proliferation of stuff like flat worms and such is worse in closed systems ..but after someone has been experianced with these problems and learns proper quarntine methods ,dips and such..there is not much if any problems after the system is stocked and new species are no longer introduced without proper precautions took first

 

[Anonymous]

'piracy' implies initially stealing or robbing for the purposes of taking advantage of someone elses 'property' (i.e.-w/ malicious intent), i would think

how does anyone who propagates or exports coral fit into that category ?

what was stolen ?

what coercion was used ?

why shouldn't i have as much right to any resource of the planet as anyone else, if i'm willing to plunk down the resources/infrastructure ? and vice versa ?

as long as the local gov'ts aren't kicking out or demanding the 'pirates' leave, then where is the 'piracy' ?

someone's a pirate because they figgered out a way to make most of the money first, before those who happen to live closest to the resource ?

if folks on a PI island use an american researchers published filtration technique to increase profit of a prop farm in the PI, are they also guilty of piracy ?
:wink:

 

[JeremyR]

Biopiracy.. what a load of crap. First people complain that we ruin reefs by supporting cyanide collection of fish and coral collection in general(which is done by the natives). Then they complain that we support aquaculture in the US because it harms reefs by not supporting the natives. Get real is right.

 

[clarionreef]

JT and Jeremys right,
Biopiracy is what corrupt fisheries officials engage in every time they support, sanction and approve of the smuggling out of resources without fair compensation to their own people.
If the 'precious commodity' was in fact stolen without the countrys own complicity...then the notion is at least worth discussing. If it is shipped out with commodity clearances, fisheries and customs seals and signatures and health certificates....then whos the 'pirate?'
Receiving stolen and smuggled property is not what generally happens on airfright in the daytime. The guantlet of govt. officials on both sides of the ocean can intercept if ever a nations laws are violated.
But heres a good one;
Suppose you agree that reparations are in order and that a collective money pot must be created to compensate the victims....who in this forum is innocent enough to ever think that a peso or a rupiah would ever make it out of bureaucrats offices in Manila or Jakarta?
Bogor [ Indo fishery seat ] and BFAR would love to handle it.
As they both sanction every crime against their own marine environments ever listed here...daily....wheres the piracy?
If anything...its home grown bio-treason...or bio-corruption.
Indo and Philippine fisheries have shameful records in terms of protecting their own national interests...before and after their respective 20 year long dictatorships. What continues to be their excuse besides love of foreign money?
The sell-out of their own patrimony is bio-piracy? Gimme a break.
Steve

 

[dizzy]

I'm thinking that there is a better definition of the term biopiracy. Using problems in other countries to get grants and then spending that money on extravagant salaries, luxury travel & accomdations, gala events, and other uses without actually fixing the problems the money was given for seems like biopiracy to me. I'm not suggesting any group has done this, but if they did it would be a bigger crime than a reefer growing frags in his/her garage.
Mitch