Angels need help!!

[uk-reefs]

Hi All

I would like to pic your brains if I may.

We are a reef shop in the UK, and have been trading for just over a year.
We recently started to import our own livestock, and on the whole things have gone well. All corals do great and most fish. However dwarf angels are proving to be a challange. They land well, feed, look healthy, but after a period 4-7days approx, tend to start going down hill. The eyes go cloudy and then the fins go ragged, and death usually is the unfortunate result.

The fish display system is 500g, with tricle tower, large skimmer, ozone reactor, UV, and pressurised sand filter. All equiptment is rated correctly or over as in case of skimmer.

Water parameters are no3 25ppm, no2 0, nh4 0, temp 25c, salinity 1.023.

The system is dosed with 0.05 ppm of copper (TMC Marine Cure), tested using Merc test kit.

We acclimatise all the imported fish on a drip system for 6 hrs, in total darkness, is this OK?

Can anyone see what we are doing wrong with the dwarf angels? I must stress it is only dwarf angels that we have a problem with.


Thankyou in advance for your help.

 

[Anonymous]

you're having this problem w/ ALL dwarf angels, or just certain species?

where are you getting them from ?

have you talked to the supplier ?

dwarf angels are among the very hardy groups of fish, they shouldn't really be any problem to keep, if they're arriving in good condition

 

[uk-reefs]

Thanks for the reply

It is all dwarf angels. They are coming from Bali, Indonesia and Phillipines.

We can not fathom it. All others are fine. I have never had problems with dwarf Angels in over 30yrs of reef keeping privately, but for some reason the coomercial side to these have us scratching our heads.

In the UK, we do not get to talk to suppliers direct, we order through shipping agents.

We now have setup another system (ready in about a week) that runs on living rock, skimmer, UV (more of a natural system) and are going to give this a try.




Any more ideas/ thoughts?

 

[Anonymous]

change the supplier

 

[Anonymous]

Tell the fish to lay off the "juice"

 

[ontfish10]

In my experience,some centropyge angels are sensitive to copper-although the dose you quote is very low. You may want to try a formalin bath and no copper in their system.
I would suggest trying to correct the situation (as you appear to be doing ) -before blaming the supplier. That is the easy way out.

 

[PeterIMA]

What you are describing with your dwarf angelfih is typical of symptoms associated with Dead After Arrival (DAA) in the marine aquarium fish trade. It may be that the fish are coming down with bacterial infections that are related to the stress of capture and transport. I suggest you treat the fish on arrival by adding Choramphenicol or Nitrofurazone to the quarantine tank. Keep the fish under dim light with the medication for at least 7-10 days. Some fish such as clownfish also come down with Brooklynella (a cilated protozoan that attacks the gills). For this I suggest you use a quinine compound like ChlorQuin (available from Sigma) in addition to the antibiotic.

Peter Rubec

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

In my experience,some centropyge angels are sensitive to copper-although the dose you quote is very low. You may want to try a formalin bath and no copper in their system.
I would suggest trying to correct the situation (as you appear to be doing ) -before blaming the supplier. That is the easy way out.

:?:

it's actually not the easier way-finding good suppliers of healthy fish to avoid needing to medicate to begin with is one of the hardest aspects of running a retail store :wink:


doesn't it make more sense to correct things at the source, rather than purchase a mistake in order to correct it?


i worked at a store where we would bring in orders of 50 flame angels at a shot, mebbe 2-3 were DAA :wink:


1/2 blacks, eibi/vrolki (sp), keyholes, nox, all should be very easy to obtain in good health, if you have a DECENT (read: not exceptionally good)wholesaler

a wholesaler who couldn't supply me with dwarf angels that eat within 1/2 hr of arrival is a supplier i'd drop, like a hot potato

copper for even one month at 'ich kill' level should not pose any problem for any dwarf angel, ime.

 

[Kalkbreath]

If the symptoms are the same for all three or more collectors angels, it makes more sense that the problem is post shipping. There is a common denominator for all the angels even though they are being collected hundreds of miles apart. find out what it is? During Acclimation water quality can become toxic if the pH raises while Ammonia is still present.This can burn the gills and eyes setting up for the bacteria to take hold.
Drip method is bad about this if your fish are coming straight from the collector. [30 hours]
Placing the fish in new clean low pH water is better then acclimating in the old shipping water.
Next ... Your fish system ,despite all the in line UV and 03 you have, it still wont get 100 percent of pathogen out of the individual cubes/tanks . Bleach will.
Also , Place a few of the fish in other systems to see if you get different results. It is more then likely that the fish are picking up the disease some where during your control.

 

[JennM]

They land well, feed, look healthy, but after a period 4-7days approx, tend to start going down hill. The eyes go cloudy and then the fins go ragged, and death usually is the unfortunate result.

I don't import fish myself, but I've seen this in angels, large and small and occasionally in tangs.

It sounds to me like flukes, or trematodes. To know for sure, freshwater dip one of the cloudy-eyed fishes. After about 3 minutes you'll start to see the trematodes fall off, they look like clear or opaque sesame seeds in the water - sometimes a bit larger sometimes a bit smaller but you get the idea.

We've used freshwater dips extensively for this but I really like Hikari PraziPro to treat my system with it. A dip is good for a single individual or a few fish but now that I have a good medication to tackle the problem I use that. Copper does not work on trematodes, neither does formalin in my experience.

Chloramphenicol and Nitrofurizone are very dangerous substances and should only be used under a veterinarian's supervision - or at the very least by somebody who knows what the heck they are doing. IMO for this problem though, PraziPro should do the trick.

HTH

Jenn

 

[naesco]

You should not purchase fish from wholesalers that import fish from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.

 

[clarionreef]

WAYNE,
HOW COULD IT BE RAMPANT WITH ALL THE SUCCESS MENTIONED BY JAIME.?
If the groups praised did the job well, what do you mean the use of cyanide is rampant? Is the success rampant or the cyanide use?
You guys from Canana are confusing me.
Steve

 

[JennM]

You should not purchase fish from wholesalers that import fish from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.

I think he understood that much, Wayne -- he was asking for information on appropriate places to obtain fish from - can you suggest any? :roll:

Hawaii, Tonga, Fiji, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu come to mind - but I don't import so I don't know the information on specific exporters there.

Jenn

 

[naesco]

What about Cuba.

There are dozens and dozens of direct flights to Havana, Varadero and other Cuban airports.

 

[Anonymous]

:lol:

 

[Kalkbreath]

What is this love for Cuba thing? Half the Cuban people want to leave and cant and half of o Cannada thinks its a great place. Chances are Naesco has little idea why America hasnt alowed exports from Cuba for thirty years.

 

[naesco]

What is this love for Cuba thing? Half the Cuban people want to leave and cant and half of o Cannada thinks its a great place. Chances are Naesco has little idea why America hasnt alowed exports from Cuba for thirty years.

Of course I know. You don't. But anyway cut the politics. Cuba may be source of quality cyanide free fish and coral.

 

[mkirda]

What about Cuba.

And Cuba is a good source for dwarf Indo-Pacific angel species?

 

[Anonymous]

What is this love for Cuba thing? Half the Cuban people want to leave and cant and half of o Cannada thinks its a great place. Chances are Naesco has little idea why America hasnt alowed exports from Cuba for thirty years.

Of course I know. You don't. But anyway cut the politics. Cuba may be source of quality cyanide free fish and coral.

Destined for which country?

 

[Anonymous]

You should not purchase fish from wholesalers that import fish from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.

Out of curiosity, how exactly does this post help the topic at hand? Is it constructive in any way at all? Does it do anything to help the person who started this thread that is having trouble with having certain fish die after arrival?

I mean, I may not comment in here a lot, but I do read most of the threads in this forum and your inane comments about cyanide are really freakin irritating to me when they are in threads that have absolutely nothing to do with cyanide caught fish.

Jeez.... :roll: