Help needed in fish loss

[MitchellB]

As a new employee of a LFS which is battleing an ever increasing fish mortality rate I am getting frusterated with trying to solve this.
I dont even know where to begin except for saying that every morning we are pulling out dead fish.

Where do I begin to try and solve the puzzle

besides for amonia
Nitrate
Nitrite what other water tests would you's suggest. They are using Red Sea Salt in about 1000 gallons of water total. all the tanks drain over bioballs in a sump and is skimmed. UV steralization is used as well.

Fish are showing no signs of desease..just dead. All fish are eating.

comments please...I know there isn't alot of information for anyone to work with here but please guide me with what information you need.

Thanks

 

[JT]

For starters, please do some basic water tests and post the results here. Do you have some type of ground probe in place somewhere on the system?

 

[JennM]

First off, welcome to the trade It's frustrating and rewarding all rolled into one.

To expand on what JT said...

Test also for pH. You might want to test it at different times of day, early, midday and late, to see if there's a swing. If funds allow, get a pH monitor.

Temperature - also monitor this throughout the day and watch for swings. You can get an inexpensive digital thermometer and keep it on the system and watch it throughout the day.

Specific gravity: What is the system running at, and how does it compare to the water that the fish are arriving in? A large swing, particularly upward, can be most stressful on an already jet-lagged fish.

Ammonia should be nonexistant - anything else is unacceptable.
Nitrite should be nonexistant - anything else is unacceptable.
Nitrate should be close to zero but realistically in a large sell system under 50 PPM in a fish-only system shouldn't be a huge stressor on the fish.

Medications? Any being used? Possibly interacting with each other?
Protein skimming? This helps remove excess wastes.

Water changes? How much and how often?

Feeding - what are the fish being fed, and how often?

A few answers there and perhaps we can help you unravel the mystery.

Jenn

 

[MitchellB]

Thanks

Well I will start now with some basic answers and then tommorow I will get the rest

There is a ground probe in the sump for the entire system.

The wall consists of 8-100 gallon fish only tanks.
Salinity is aprox 023/024

I feed OSI Marine flake with some Zoe in the mornings and 4 of the tanks also has a veggie clip for Nori. I have also been feeding some calurpa out of a refugium to the tangs.

Nitrates are typically around 25ppm

The system is skimmed with a large in sump skimmer.

NOW.............. the sump does sit directly in front of a large garage door, so when store shipments arrive the sump does come in contact with the cold. There are 4 heaters in the sump though. I will start a program to monitor the system for temp, ph and salinity.

I have only been working at the store for a month so I have not seen and meds put into the system. I will say however that In my opinion the Red sea salt seems pretty harsh. My tank arm seems to be getting red spots like pimples on it. Everyone there says its caused by the red sea salt. any ideas about that one?

Besides for those water samples, are there any other tests that can be done?

Thanks for now
I will get more info tomorow

 

[PeterIMA]

You might consider the fact that the fish may be dying from being stressed, exposed to high concentrations of ammonia/ammonium, and/or captured with cyanide prior to arrival at your facility.

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

how do you introduce the livestock into the system, and from what area of the world are you getting them from ?

are they transshipped, or bought through a wholesaler ?

 

[MitchellB]

OK here goes...It's late so I will do my best

all lights on at 9 a.m. Normal output florecents


fed around 10ish with flake OSI food and zoe

The following readings were done at 3 p.m. today
ammonia-0
nitrite-0
nitrate-25
also tested for copper and silica and iodine...boss gave me the test kits. all non detectable.

Pinpoint PH reading 7.9 Temp 78 salinity with a refractometer is .021

No meds in the system.

Sytem is 800 gallons and it gets a 300 gallon change a week. they were useing Red Sea salt, now they are switching to IO or tropic marin


So there procedure for getting fish in is as follows.

Pour Muriatic acid into empty tank to bring PH down. 100 gallon tank gets 24ml of acid.

Fish arrive and each bag gets floated in the designated tank. when all boxes are emptied the bags are broken open, water is dumped into a pail and fish is placed in the tank. Repeat above steps until all bags are empty. Lights stay off for two days. New fish are fed heavy at first.

typical fish include:

cleaner wrasse
6 lines
chromis
damsels
blue tangs
yellow tangs
naso tangs
unicorn tangs
coral beauty
flame angel
various butterfly fish(im a reef guy so Im not familiar with the butterflys...vagabonds, raccon, checkered?


Lights off about 9 p.m.
Anyway your help is appreciated

 

[<*(((((><]

You might consider the fact that the fish may be dying from being stressed, exposed to high concentrations of ammonia/ammonium, and/or captured with cyanide prior to arrival at your facility.

Peter Rubec

I agree. Unless there are noxious compounds such as chemicals or other poisonous elements present, it would either be cyanide or improper acclimation protocols. I have seen this more times than I like to remember.


<*(((((><

 

[naesco]

I agree.
You need to ensure that the fish you buy are NOT coming from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Dont feed new fish until they have had time to excrete the ammonia in their systems.
Dont use Muratic acid .........there are too many not nice by bi-products when mixed with Artificial seawater
Pay more attention to how slowly you raise the pH and check water quality whilst you acclimate.........Muratic acid harms biotowers. Use a PH down product .

 

[Anonymous]

You might consider the fact that the fish may be dying from being stressed, exposed to high concentrations of ammonia/ammonium, and/or captured with cyanide prior to arrival at your facility.

Peter Rubec

I agree. Unless there are noxious compounds such as chemicals or other poisonous elements present, it would either be cyanide or improper acclimation protocols. I have seen this more times than I like to remember.


<*(((((><

Geez guys, you really think his yellow tangs are dying from cyanide? What about his flame angels or cleaner wrasse? In case you didn't pick up on it, I'm being sarcastic. Peter should know better, but as always, he's pushing things that he wants to get grants for. Hows the freshwater farm going in Central Americe Peter, save any corals reefs with it yet?

 

[dizzy]

I don't see the problem with Peter's statement. Some of those species such as blue tangs would have to be considered suspect as to cyanide capture. I also agree that many of those fish could have been stressed before they arrived at the store. How many days do they live for before dying? Do certain species fare better than others? I'm interested in how the store deals with preventing parasite infestations. If not copper or hypo it must be UV sterilizers. If so how many watts per gallon of water are you using? What is the flow rate of the system? How many times does it turn over per hour? How often do you change the bulbs? Is all the water pumped through a UV before it returns to the systems? Some systems just take it out of the sump and dump straight back into the same sump which is a poor way to prevent the spread of parasites from tank to tank. If the water is pumped through the UV too fast it may not have time to kill the parasites properly. If it is pumped too slowly the UV might work properly, but dissolved oxygen might be too low in the tanks. What is your stocking rate per tank? Have you tested dissovled oxygen in the system? What are your readings? Also changing 300 out of 800 gallons per week plus selling fish that need the water replaced seems like a lot. Do you mix it well in advance of using it for the changes?

I believe fish loses are usually caused by a combination of factors and there is no one single cause. Increasing flow rates and reducing stocking levels would probably benefit the vast majority of the systems out there. I'm not sure if trying to keep a lot of fish in 100-gallon tanks is better than keeping them in individual cubicles. Aggression can cause stress and/or injuries. I also suspect you can stress several of them out trying to chase down one to catch it. Do you keep decorations that can be used for shelter in the tanks? It gives the fish much needed comfort, but makes catching them all the more difficult.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Yup, some. Stressed, really, you think What, from the copious amounts of slime given off by the wrasses mentioned, or the poor massive handling of yellow tangs/flames angels/coral beauties, or the overly sensitive tangs listed, or the overly senstitive chromis that get starved prior to shipping? How about the super poor handling of Butt's (another super sensitive shipper), Ferdie trians his dudes to throw em in cups so they can rub their noses off. Never mind what your wholesaler did to them after that, or what the LFS in question did to them after that. Every fish on that list is a problem shipper, why didn't any of you pro's point that out? It's a combo of factors, I highly doubt he's really doing anything too wrong. All of them experience higher DOA/DAA the most other fish. None of you even mentioned trying a different supplier, many fish are do better from differring sources

The dude I quoted said unless it's noxious compunds running around in your system, it was cyanide. If no compunds in the system, the Yellow tang and flame angel were juiced with dope? Sorry, no dope there, just poor collection/holding practices.

I say ban Canadian fish as thats where neasco runs rampant

 

[JT]

Gotta agree with Gresham's comments here in both instances.

 

[Kalkbreath]

JT, why did you not visit me this week end? I got all dressed up in my Easter bonet and Sunday best! :wink:

 

[dizzy]

Jeff,
I stopped by your store on the way down to the Global Trade Show and your employees acted like they didn't hardly know who you were. What's up with that? 8O You ought to try hanging out there some time. :wink:

 

[JT]

JT, why did you not visit me this week end? I got all dressed up in my Easter bonet and Sunday best! :wink:

Sorry Jeff, I had better plans suddenly arise!

I'll catch ya next time, I liked ATL quite a bit and think I'll be spending alot of time there in the near future. :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Jeff,
I stopped by your store on the way down to the Global Trade Show and your employees acted like they didn't hardly know who you were. What's up with that? 8O You ought to try hanging out there some time. :wink:

How did you like the store? The employees are trained well. My wife is always here .....The blonde behind the counter. I have to baby sit my two boys on the week ends........ But IM really not in the retail store during store hours much , Running to the airport and on the phone a lot ......IM in the store every night though from ten to four AM. ........Let me know next time your in town , I might actually have the store finished by then ........
How did you like the look down tanks?

 

[Anonymous]

hey MitchellB


Any updates???

 

[dizzy]

How did you like the store? The employees are trained well. My wife is always here .....The blonde behind the counter. I have to baby sit my two boys on the week ends........ But IM really not in the retail store during store hours much , Running to the airport and on the phone a lot ......IM in the store every night though from ten to four AM. ........Let me know next time your in town , I might actually have the store finished by then ........
How did you like the look down tanks?

Jeff I thought your store was pretty nice. You did have a great selection of cultured frags that looked good under the 20K 1000 watters. All the stores in Atlanta seem to be well above average. Someone put the bar up pretty high there and it has made all the stores better. Jenn's store is nice too. I didn't get a chance to go by Greg Housely store but I have heard it is nice as well. I was impressed by SunPet too. All in all I was impressed and proud of the job my Southern brothers are doing. Keep up the good work.
Mitch