Retail Advice: Troublesome Competitor

[JT]

Having an issue with another retail store in the area aboot 15 miles away. I don't consider him to be a true competitor in the financial sense but technically he is a competitor.

This store is ignorant when it comes to fish disease identification and medication. I am having a BIG problem with regular customers from here going to him for advice when they run into problems after we have closed. He constantly recomends copper based treatments, regardless of the illness, and more customers than I can count have nuked their reef tanks because this store has sold them some kind of copper based medicine and telling them it was ok to treat the display tank. Just the other day, a customer came in and described a no brains Brook problem but this store treated it as ich with an expired medication from an out of business manufacturer and told him to treat the display tank. *bangs head on wall*

Should I try to go down there and "educate" him. Do I have to change my store hours to match his so my regular customers don't go to him when I am closed? I'm getting fed up and tired of this guy downright killing so much livestock and nuking so much live rock with copper.

- JT

 

[Kalkbreath]

May I suggest you take a couple of squits of cuppermine and call us back in the morning.........after all it does cure just about everything. :wink: [And Im sixteen mine away for your info]

 

[JT]

Hi Jeff, it's not you.. if it were, I'd already have been there to kick you ass. Careful, I have a couple service accounts near you.. you never know when I'll pop in. :wink:

The store I am referring to is probably a bit closer than 15, probably 10 miles, and you are closer to 20 miles.

- JT

 

[Kalkbreath]

Just dont confuse me with Bobby ........IM six three and 220 pounds.
Asians use copper in fish tanks like they use MSG in food.
When a meaty response is impossible, offer a filler to placate them.

 

[Anonymous]

Welcome to retail!!

 

[Anonymous]

i give JT 6 months before....

a)has a stroke
b)hits a customer
c)publicly embarrasses his boss
d)all of the above

:twisted: :lol:

you're now in a totally different world bubbah-better learn that the only thing that matters is what YOU do, not what someone else does :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

I never have been too comfortable with the availible answers to a customer with ick in their reef tank. Thats why I tell customers that I hate fish , they are why hobbyists over feed their tanks, get hair algea and drop out after a six months." Fish are food, not pets" Dory!
Well thats not quite what I tell the customers , but it is how I feel at times.
What I usually say , {but not with a straight face] is..........
1.] Take your fish out , treat them in a separate hospital tank and wait three weeks. Then the customers replies...

"cant catch my fish my, tank is a 125 I have two hundred pounds of rock and six thousand dollars worth of corals . Im not setting my rock and corals in thirty five home depot buckets for six hours while my wife bitches that Im getting salt water all over the wood floors."

I have come to understand that what they really want is ....

Please sell me a placebo so I can let my fish die , but not feel bad about letting it happen .

What do you all tell somebody with a fully stocked reef tank , when they have Ick? And can you still advise them with a staight face .?

 

[JennM]

Yep, Jeff, that about sums it up. And when they give me the whole list of excuses, I'll tell them, "That's why I recommended quarantine FIRST, but you did not want to take the time or spend the money on a quarantine tank - it would have been easier and cheaper to identify and treat the problem in a quarantine tank, than now. So now you can either watch and wait, OR take the time to get the sick fish out and hope it didn't infect everyone else - you choose".

I've actually had customers have success with Kick Ich, that's the ONLY thing I will suggest if they really won't rip their tank apart. Only thing is, that's for Ich - not Brook, not a bacterial infection etc. A lot of people have trouble grasping that there is more than one ailment that they could be dealing with. Fish is sick, they assume it MUST be ich... whatever... It's hard enough to diagnose a problem accurately - honestly I need a crystal ball or something for all the times people want an instant diagnosis and solution over the phone. I also find that these folks like to describe the same problem over and over and over... whether I've come up with an opinion of a diagnosis or not. If I'm stumped, they find rephrasing it over and over again is somewhat comforting... even though I still don't know! Or if they repeat the symptoms over and over, the diagnosis will change? I don't know if that's a regional thing or what but I find people here will ask the same question 10 different ways, often in the hope of getting the answer they want to hear. I've actually politely told a customer, "I've answered that question several times now, the answer will always be the same. Do you have another question?"

I really love it that often the customers are buying fish all over the place - usually going too fast, and *then* when they have a problem they call us. Had they listened to us in the first place and slowed down, the'd probably not have the problem....

But like Vitz said - that's retail.

I have to agree with JT though - the store in question has been dishing out questionable advice since they opened. It's really frustrating - however in the plus column this guy has actually sent me a ton of business. I'm not in the habit of telling people where every store is in the area, but he does I've had people who wouldn't otherwise find me, tell me that "Q" sent them - once I get them in the door, I've got them. I don't return the favour though. I've had some flustered, frustrated people with live rock tanks full of Cupramine and Greenex and who knows what else (half the people don't even know what they used to nuke their tank when the stuff starts to die and they call me), come to me to unravel the problems. Man are they pissed off when they learn that they ruined their live rock with Cupramine, or whatever and that's why their shrimp and snails are all dead.... OY!

Of course, a lot of this can be blamed back to the hobbyist. We always recommend quarantine, websites recommend quarantine, books recommend quarantine - but of course most are too in a hurry or too stingy to do it right. Then when they realize they have a problem they want an instant fix - it's that "gotta have it now" mentality that gets them into trouble in the first place. Of course somehow the hobbyist always manages to blame the LFS...

I'm really not sure what to do about this issue. I've been tempted to pop down to this other store, or call on the phone and have a polite and professional word with him about medications and hospital tanks... but not sure if it's appropriate to do. I see him occasionally at the local wholesaler but I don't think that would be the time or place.

Jenn

 

[JeremyR]

Going there or calling them will just make things worse. Bad stores don't cure themselves, and they don't get better from the competition telling them they are doing it wrong. It's how it is, the sooner you realize that and go on with life the better your blood pressure will be and the longer you'll live.

 

[JennM]

Spoken like a true cynic, Jeremy

I don't know what attitudes are like between store owners where you are, but around here, we're all pretty much on friendly terms with one another. Neither JT nor I said the other store was "bad", just that some of the advice that they were giving/meds they were selling were not appropriate for the type of tanks they were attempting to treat, and that they were likely misdiagnosing problems.

We're all still learning here - if I was doing something blatently wrong, I'd like to think that I could set my own ego aside for the better of the livestock, the customers, and the hobby, if someone more learned than myself had a discreet word with me.

I'm still unsure what, if anything we should do about this... as I said before it's as much hobbyist ignorance as it is about the place in question giving out bad advice. Anybody with a lick of common sense would think twice before putting medications into systems with delicate infauna... but I digress...

At the end of the day we probably won't do anything about it - I'm just tired of being the bearer of bad tidings when somebody calls up asking why all their inverts are now dead and after asking some questions, realizing that they were instructed to inadvertently kill them all. My guess is the law of the jungle will prevail - sooner or later some customer will blow the guy's hair back when they've lost big dollars' worth of livestock and live rock over this type of thing.

Jenn

 

[Rikko]

I would think that your customers should be going back to him anyways and giving him a piece of their minds.
It's not your job to police what he says, but you shouldn't be delicate at all when you say that he gave them bad advice and what he told them to do killed their tank. They can either:
a) go and give him hell, and perhaps lead into...
b) realize that the stores don't know everything and perhaps pick up a book or two
c) continue stumbling through their stupid lives.

I agree that solutions for ich are pretty scarce in a big reef. Tearing the tank down is just unreasonable (much like stripping a house down to the studs because the floors were squeaky) - I'd venture that the overwhelming majority of hobbyists simply don't care enough about their wards to be willing to actually put that amount of effort into helping them. Money, maybe. But blood, sweat, and tears? I've rarely seen it.
My tired old answer is cleaner shrimp - if you don't have anything that will munch on them, they do a rather good job. My girlfriend is currently in an ich breakout and we decided that cleaner shrimp are really the only viable option - I have to say, they're getting the job done. No instant results, but the badly infested fish are making their way over and getting cleaned up and it's on the decline.

 

[Anonymous]

Going there or calling them will just make things worse. Bad stores don't cure themselves, and they don't get better from the competition telling them they are doing it wrong. It's how it is, the sooner you realize that and go on with life the better your blood pressure will be and the longer you'll live.

My thoughts exactly. Giving bad advice when it comes to livestock IMO equates to a bad business. If he's telling his custies that they can Cupe. their rock, he is practicing bad business. To bad the US doesn't do the same pet store permit situation as England. They culled out the bad ones with it

 

[Kalkbreath]

I think I know what ick feels like to a fish ............
I went hicking , I mean hiking Monday and laid down in a grand expanse of spikemoss on top of a local mountain. It was a sight to behold !Clean air blue sky cool temps. But unbeknown to us , we we not along on this remote mountain get away!!!
Well, my boys whom were dressed in there usual Sunday best...loose gangster rapper outfits, seem to have gone unnoticed by the locals on this there mountain trail .Perhaps to the local onlookers my boys appeared as though they were a pair of white tail deer that had stumbled into empty Sleeping bags?
I myself was dressed for success in my skin tight Calvin's and my matching 1979 knee high socks......I seemed to have gained the rightful attention I sought by the locals. becuase several young adults even clung onto me ....so I did what any nice guy would do and and I brought them back to my home later that day.
Only the individuals that came back with me were not the Daisy Duke Mountain types I dream about every issue of Star magazine.
NO ! These were blood sucking lizard mites {chiggers}!
Its been at least ten years since I partied with these guys and its just like riding a bike..........I have already scratched and itched my unmentionables to the point that they look like a burn patient.
The next week is sure to be a fun one and my multitasking skills are sure to decline a tad.
But at least now , I can truly appreciate the joy a blue tang must feel as blood sucking parasitic algae such the blood from its already cyanide stricken body.
At least I have hands.
Speaking of hands,
"dear can you please hand me that bottle of Cuppramine"
I have an idea........
:wink:

 

[JennM]

Hey Jeff.. try some calamine lotion applied topically on the affected area and perhaps a Benadryl for the itch, and call me in the morning. Just don't get any calamine lotion in your tank - you never know what that could do in your tank 8O

Yep it's bad business. Honestly though I think it comes from simple ignorance, and yeah I'm waiting for Darwinian theory to kick in here -- sooner or later the customers may cull this one out. Too bad, I hate to see that happen to anybody... but yeah, that's how it works. A few customers have said they were going to blow his hair back but I don't know if any of them actually had the cajones to do it. What folks say they'll do and what they'll actually do are two different things.

As for what lengths people will go to - well plenty of folks *will* rip a tank down to get a damsel out once it's killed a $40 or more $ fish... they wouldn't do it before that (Oh I wanna say, "I told you so"....but I don't!), because it was 'too much trouble' and besides, 'he's cute and he's never ever been any trouble' (uh huh). I don't even sell damsels (right Gresham? :lol:

I suppose this whole discussion stems from people wanting an instant fix for everything, without any effort. If they half-assed treatment on a sick dog or cat, somebody'd be calling the ASPCA... but it's 'only' a fish... it's funny how the standards change.

Oh well, wonder how many more will nuke their tanks this week?

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

I think Rikko summed it up pretty well. We have a couple of chain stores and a Walmart that we are constantly correcting bad advice from. I've found the simple demonstration of knowledge about the subject goes a long way, a lot of people just don't know their options and just stuck with the first place they went until they had problems. I always lay the blame squarely at the feet of the person giving bad advice, tell them how I would handle it (usually involving a request for a refund :wink: ), and then give them their options, and encourage them to learn more about their tank. Would you prefer your customers constantly coming into your shop raving about the excellent knowledge, advice, and quality they've been getting up the street?

 

[JennM]

Actually I have no problem with people getting good advice elsewhere, and when a customer tells me that they were told something at another store, and it's what I consider to be good advice, I'll tell them so: "Yes, I agree, you were given good advice there." That type of thing raises the overall standard in the area. More hobbyists succeed, more stay in the hobby and you're more secure in your future in this business.

How many people have just quit in frustration after getting conflicting advice from this one and that one, until they're so confused, so frustrated and have had so many losses that they wonder what the hell they are doing in this crazy hobby in the first place then ditch their equipment in the Thrifty Nickel for a song? TOO MANY.

A bad store, or even a decent store that gives bad advice (I think we're discussing the latter here) does more to harm us all, than it does just to harm the poor unsuspecting hobbyist who blindly follows the advice given. A bad store does not help my bottom line, not in the big picture. Sure I may have earned a few new customers once they realize that my/our approach is more sensible, but how many other potential long term customers just give up and quit before they venture to another store? We'll probably never know.

Yeah I've suggested asking for a refund for things killed off by bad advice but as I said, I don't know many people who would be assertive enough to actually do it. Many just shake their heads, chalk it up to experience and call it a loss and either start again, or go FO with their coppery rock.

Jenn

 

[razman01]

The answer to the original question:

1) Stay open later sometimes this is an option we as retailers really do not want to get into it means longer hours, more overhead, for just a little more profit.

2) Offer a help line to your customers when you are closed and rotate the person who answers the calls. This is what veterinarians use when their offices are closed.

3) Tell all of your customer not to go to that store if they have a problem with their tanks.

4) Send the owner a how to guide to medicating fish in freshwater, saltwater fish and reef tanks. That way you don't have to talk about him. Also with this idea give a copy to your customers as a hand out. It will only cost you a couple of bucks and your time. Produce it in an Excel spread sheet and hand it out to every one of your customer.

Just my .02

 

[Anonymous]

Going there or calling them will just make things worse. Bad stores don't cure themselves, and they don't get better from the competition telling them they are doing it wrong. It's how it is, the sooner you realize that and go on with life the better your blood pressure will be and the longer you'll live.

absolutely!

 

[Anonymous]

Actually I have no problem with people getting good advice elsewhere, and when a customer tells me that they were told something at another store, and it's what I consider to be good advice, I'll tell them so: "Yes, I agree, you were given good advice there." That type of thing raises the overall standard in the area. More hobbyists succeed, more stay in the hobby and you're more secure in your future in this business.

How many people have just quit in frustration after getting conflicting advice from this one and that one, until they're so confused, so frustrated and have had so many losses that they wonder what the hell they are doing in this crazy hobby in the first place then ditch their equipment in the Thrifty Nickel for a song? TOO MANY.

A bad store, or even a decent store that gives bad advice (I think we're discussing the latter here) does more to harm us all, than it does just to harm the poor unsuspecting hobbyist who blindly follows the advice given. A bad store does not help my bottom line, not in the big picture. Sure I may have earned a few new customers once they realize that my/our approach is more sensible, but how many other potential long term customers just give up and quit before they venture to another store? We'll probably never know.

Yeah I've suggested asking for a refund for things killed off by bad advice but as I said, I don't know many people who would be assertive enough to actually do it. Many just shake their heads, chalk it up to experience and call it a loss and either start again, or go FO with their coppery rock.

Jenn

no such animal :wink:

 

[JennM]

I beg to differ, Vitz. There is indeed such a thing as a good store that gives bad advice....

I used to frequent a very good store (I later worked there). The store itself was fine, however one of the sales people attempted to sell me a Mandarin Dragonet to eat algae. 8O Bad advice? You betcha! Did it mean the store sucked? Absolutely not. Since I knew better, but figured that many other clients probably didn't, I discreetly took the owner aside, and explained what I'd been told about Mandarins and algae control, and by whom. The owner took the salesman aside and corrected the problem.

As for the current discussion - I can't say I've heard anyone complain about the quality or selection of the livestock that the particular store is selling, nor have I heard of any bad compatibility mixes suggested by that store. So they are weak where diagnosis and treatment is concerned - doesn't make them 'bad'... just means they can and should improve, and quit "helping" people nuke their tanks in the interim.

Hmm maybe there are no bad stores, just bad hobbyists :lol: :lol: :lol: (tongue planted firmly in cheek)

Jenn