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clarionreef

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I don't know what's worse - that somebody would do this to the fish, or that there are people ignorant enough to buy them

A lesson is in there for the groups who pretend that they will "educate the consumer".
They could not affect consumer choice in the smallest of matters, like this one for example...let alone the larger.
The mass of consumers that comprise the market for this sort of buying behavior are way beyond the edge of your ability to reach them.
They don't read, they don't google fishbase.org, they don't go to clubs and shows to learn, they don't see aquarium keeping as a craft....much less a responsibility....and they would never see this thread.
They consume color, watch it die and spit it out to no effect.....and they will search again tomorrow.
Cut flowers it is and if the creation is man made like a pretty gladiola there is no perceived difference. The tragedy is...if its dwindling marine wildlife....you get the same response.
The dealers should make choices based upon what sells...or what is an abomination to some you suggest?
It sells...
But hey, they can't even choose between fishes caught with coral killing methods and fishes that don't. [ a far greater abomination]
Steve
 
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Anonymous

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painted/dyed fish, including the 'bloody parrot/jellybean cichlid' (a man induced mutation/mule/hybrid )have been around for decades, are bred for the body form and then cosmetically altered (usually w/a dye injection performed subcutaneously)


this is the first y'all are aware of this ? 8O



i'll lay money down that within 5 years there will be green and yellow percs available as well, with purple polka dots, too! :wink:
 
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Anonymous

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In reality, I am torn on this issue. Since these animals aren't wild caught, is painting them really any worse than how we treat our food animals? I guess it does set a poor tone for the hobby in general.
 

JennM

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dizzy":ulrmpilr said:
I've seen people do far worse than that to themselves. 8O
Oh absolutely - but the difference is, the people do it to themselves. The fish don't have a choice in the matter.

I sure as heck wouldn't want somebody tattoing, dying or otherwise adulterating my body with paint or dye.

Yes, the practice has been around for some time - but for me, anyway this is the first time I see a fish used as a billboard sign. What's next?

Jenn
 

JennM

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Righty":12gwqys1 said:
In reality, I am torn on this issue. Since these animals aren't wild caught, is painting them really any worse than how we treat our food animals? I guess it does set a poor tone for the hobby in general.

You're torn about it? You mean part of you thinks it's OK to do this for the sake of somebody who wants an unnaturally coloured fish or to use the fish to send a message of endearment? Nothin' says luvin' like a mutant, dyed, tatooed fish... :roll:

Is a wild-caught life more valuable than a captive raised one? That opens a whole other can of ethical worms too. It's OK to mess with a captive raised fish, but it would be somehow worse to do this to a wild-caught specimen?

Just because a captive bred creature is more easy to procure than a wild caught one, does that make it that much more "disposable"?

Comparing them to food animals is like comparing guns and butter.

Jenn
 

JennM

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vitz":9gzhhk2h said:
painted/dyed fish, including the 'bloody parrot/jellybean cichlid' (a man induced mutation/mule/hybrid )have been around for decades, are bred for the body form and then cosmetically altered (usually w/a dye injection performed subcutaneously)

This is the first y'all are aware of this ? 8O

i'll lay money down that within 5 years there will be green and yellow percs available as well, with purple polka dots, too! :wink:

No this isn't the first we're aware of it but it's the first time I've seen a wholesaler headline their stock list with it - I just didn't find it as impressive as I'm sure the vendor intended it to be.

Jenn
 

clarionreef

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I sure as heck wouldn't want somebody tattoing, dying or otherwise adulterating my body with paint or dye.

Jenn,
People pay for that!
OK... So you're not a Goth chick.
Steve
 
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Anonymous

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JennM":1bh640ah said:
Righty":1bh640ah said:
In reality, I am torn on this issue. Since these animals aren't wild caught, is painting them really any worse than how we treat our food animals? I guess it does set a poor tone for the hobby in general.

You're torn about it? You mean part of you thinks it's OK to do this for the sake of somebody who wants an unnaturally coloured fish or to use the fish to send a message of endearment? Nothin' says luvin' like a mutant, dyed, tatooed fish... :roll:

Yes I am torn about it, a little. If its ok to factory farm chickens, is it really all that much of a stretch to worry about painting fish? Is it really all that different than selling someone some goldfish to suffocate in someone's bowl? Is it really worse than pulling fish out of the wild to go into someone little tank? I am not sure.

Is a wild-caught life more valuable than a captive raised one? That opens a whole other can of ethical worms too. It's OK to mess with a captive raised fish, but it would be somehow worse to do this to a wild-caught specimen?

Just because a captive bred creature is more easy to procure than a wild caught one, does that make it that much more "disposable"?

Hence the torn part.

Also, it feels like you are talking down to me for exploring a different opinion than you might have. I hope that is not the case.

Comparing them to food animals is like comparing guns and butter.

Why? :D
 

nanocat

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Well from the consumer's point of view, I see a big difference between painted fish and chicken's raised for frying.

A closer comparison would be between painted fish and the dyed easter chicks for sale. I think both are pretty poor IMO. If you want to raise chickens, then raise chickens. Don't buy a bunch of pink and baby blue chickens :roll:
 

Kalkbreath

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They are all food.
Some are food for the mind.
Some are food for the belly.


We paint our chickens with the KFC batter to feed our minds more then our belly.
Perhaps battering up our pets to make them look a certain way by shaving a poodle or dying a parrot fish is really not such a stretch.

Male fish paint themselves by turning into "Supermale"
Would the parrot fish object if the painted message was "IM a super stud"

I think what some of us are objecting to is the dis respect to nature the painting fish thing does.
Part of the reason we reefers choose to keep real live coral instead of brightly colored plastic ornaments, is that a reef tank is kinda a shrine to the wonders of nature.
Mixing the two realms, the artificial plastic aquarium and the natural tank
Waters down the message and the experience a reef tank or a natural freshwater tank brings to the hobbyist.
Is there anything "wrong " with painting a parrot fish ? Likly not .
But just like the person who drowns ice cream with catsoup or the person who pours chocolate on a hamburger ........ Sometimes just the thought of such an adulteration leaves the rest of us with a sour face.
 

clarionreef

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Objectively speaking;
There a few things more grotesque then the protruding bubble eye, golfball belly goldfish mutants all over the trade these days.
The intestines are sensitive to impacting and their eyes are delicate.
They are so handicapped with institutionally accepted deformity that they could not outrun predators in the wild...if ever let free.
Then again, they've become so far removed from the original as to appear unrelated!
The I love you parrot chichlids are a hit in China town where there is no question about where natures place in the scheme of things is.[sigh]
Steve
 
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Anonymous

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http://www.deathbydyeing.org/


more like a peta for the aquarium world than anything else, but an interesting view on what some think about the practice (as misinformed about how it's actually done as they may be ;) )
 

JennM

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cortez marine":3m9y118s said:
I sure as heck wouldn't want somebody tattoing, dying or otherwise adulterating my body with paint or dye.

Jenn,
People pay for that!
OK... So you're not a Goth chick.
Steve

Nope! No tramp stamps on my bod :)

Jenn
 

JennM

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No Righty, I'm not being condescending - but since you offered a differing opinion, I'm challenging it.

Food animals are totally different from aquarium livestock, period. And while I'm not partial to keeping chickens in little boxes their whole lives (I kept a henhouse and mine free-ranged - better eggs when the chickens can eat worms and bugs :) ) there *are* regulations in place to protect those, and they are routinely enforced.

But since you brought it up it really pisses me off that most chicken products available in supermarkets are "enhanced" with some kind of "broth"... more chemicals we don't need... but that's a whole other post for a whole other discussion board.

It's more likened to line-breeding animals (like dogs) until their bodies are so messed up that boxers can't deliver puppies without a C-section, and dalmations are dumb as posts with kidney problems that followed the double helix along with the "desirable" physical traits. Nothing wrong with having a good-looking dog, but breeding them selectively to the point where they can't have normal body function is another issue, and IMO an ethically wrong one too.

Are you trying just to play devil's advocate, or do you really see the good in having a grotesque, painted and tattooed fish to appeal to the lowest common denominator in the hobby?

Personally I'd rather see mature, informed hobbyists asking for healthy, normal-looking fishes bred for their suitability in captivity, and skip the dayglo colours artificially generated.

But since these things seem to be "so popular" perhaps I'm a dinosaur and a minority.

Jenn
 

dizzy

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JennM":1s5ndwdg said:
Oh absolutely - but the difference is, the people do it to themselves. The fish don't have a choice in the matter.
Jenn

Jenn,
I'm pretty sure in certain cultures people tattoo their children without much regard to the child's feelings. Yep I'm pretty sure I saw something like that on the Discovery channel or National Geographic. Who's to say it doesn't happen right here in the good ole US of A. And believe it or not, people actually take a needle and poke holes in their little girl's ears so they can put earrings on the child. Like a 4-year old child cares about how they look. :roll: I honestly doubt the fish gives a rat's ass as long as you feed it and change the water once in awhile.
PS
I've had to give some of my koi deep muscle injections with antibiotics and it doesn't seem like it bothers them very much.
 

JennM

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dizzy":zoo0gd3l said:
JennM":zoo0gd3l said:
Oh absolutely - but the difference is, the people do it to themselves. The fish don't have a choice in the matter.
Jenn

Jenn,
I'm pretty sure in certain cultures people tattoo their children without much regard to the child's feelings. Yep I'm pretty sure I saw something like that on the Discovery channel or National Geographic. Who's to say it doesn't happen right here in the good ole US of A. And belive it or not, people actually take a needle and poke holes in their little girl's ears so they can put earrings on the child. Like a 4-year child cares about how they look. :roll: I honestly doubt the fish gives a rat's ass as long as you feed it and change the water once in awhile.
PS
I've had to give some of my koi deep muscle injections with antibiotics and it doesn't seem like it bothers them very much.

Well my daughter asked to have her ears pierced when she was 3. I made her wait til she was 4 1/2... and she knew it would hurt, and she made that choice herself, and I agreed to it. Actually a 4 year old DOES care how they look, but that's another story too. My mom made me wait til I was 7 - and I got a second set of piercings in my ears at age 16. However I made the choice as to what to do to my own body. I'm against having babies' ears pierced too, but again this isn't the forum for that either.

I can't speak to other cultures, I'm speaking of our American (and Canadian) cultures. Many of us old-fashioned types don't "get" the whole "body art" thing beyond a pair of earrings or two. I'm one of those old fart types.

There's still a huge difference between making the choice to adorn (or deface) oneself, and inflicting the same on a creature that has no say in the matter.

There's conflicting opinion concerning whether fish feel pain... I'm not a scientist and I don't play one on TV so I don't know either way, but I'd err on the side of caution.

And there's a difference between administering a treatment for an illness, and discolouring a fish for the sake of doing so. Failure to administer the treatment may result in the fish's suffering or death. Soiling a fish by dying it or tattooing it is to do so only for the sake of cosmetics, and IMO unnecessary and unethical.

This is just my humble opinion.

Jenn
 

dizzy

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JennM":1iqqhb5c said:
Well my daughter asked to have her ears pierced when she was 3. I made her wait til she was 4 1/2... and she knew it would hurt, and she made that choice herself, and I agreed to it. Actually a 4 year old DOES care how they look, but that's another story too.
There's still a huge difference between making the choice to adorn (or deface) oneself, and inflicting the same on a creature that has no say in the matter.
Jenn

Maybe 4.5 years isn't really old enough for a child to make a decision on body mutilation for vanity's sake. Children do things because they see their parents do them, and they want to please them. Sure anyone can raise a Jon Bennet Ramsey if they so choose. How is putting pierced earrrings on a young child really any more morally correct than a tattoo on a parrot fish?
 
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Anonymous

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JennM":1s3k441y said:
No Righty, I'm not being condescending - but since you offered a differing opinion, I'm challenging it.

Good! Roll eyes always makes me wonder.

Food animals are totally different from aquarium livestock, period. And while I'm not partial to keeping chickens in little boxes their whole lives (I kept a henhouse and mine free-ranged - better eggs when the chickens can eat worms and bugs :) ) there *are* regulations in place to protect those, and they are routinely enforced.

That doesn't seem like a compelling argument. Its fine if you think they are different, but I don't think its fair to put a period in there. I see many similarities too food animals and pet animals and I would love to see some reasons why you think they are so different.
I don't understand the regulation idea. If there were regulations that were routinely enforced regarding tattooing fish it would then somehow be ok?

But since you brought it up it really pisses me off that most chicken products available in supermarkets are "enhanced" with some kind of "broth"... more chemicals we don't need... but that's a whole other post for a whole other discussion board.

Or you could post in the Sump! :D

Are you trying just to play devil's advocate, or do you really see the good in having a grotesque, painted and tattooed fish to appeal to the lowest common denominator in the hobby?

I didn't say it was good to paint and tattoo fish, I said I didn't know if it was really any different than how we keep our food animals. I actually said that I think it sets a poor tone for the hobby.

Soiling a fish by dying it or tattooing it is to do so only for the sake of cosmetics, and IMO unnecessary and unethical.

This is just my humble opinion.

But, given the current state and history of the hobby, isn't the whole thing unnecessary and 'unethical'. I don't know any compelling reason for a hobbyist to have an aquarium other than 'I want it'.

Really interesting discussion. :D
 

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