CNN Marine Ornamental Fish Story from Hawaii

[Anonymous]

I think it is a marketing problem. Most of the cultured corals are simply too big for the market.

 

[Anonymous]

where on earth do you get that bs from?

the propagated coral industry is just in its infancy, and is far from being even remotely met, let alone saturated

It might be in its infancy , but the current market has dried up . Bali and Java are overflowing with product. The market is already over saturated. The farmers are begging for more orders so they can make airline minimums out of Indo. Having to rechop over grown product that became too top heavy... Tonga , Vanuatu , Surabaya..........there is no shortage. Its a glut.

that does not define a 'glut'

propped corals are still in very heavy demand, with the demand increasing daily, by my accounts-i don't think it''ll peak for at least a good 4-5 yrs

the market may be 'saturated' for imported farmed corals-most domestic growers can't grow their stuff fast enough

 

[Anonymous]

The current cultured market is not saturated. Its just that most of what is being offered is uninteresting.

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Lets go around the merry go round AGAIN. I believe we discussed the research by Tissot and Hallacher about two years ago on RDO. At that time, I posted some of their data for the Big Island that indicated that the abundance of aquarium fishes and the diversity was declining. They claimed that marine aquarium fishes (MAF) were being overharvested and demonstrated marked declines. Just because you state MAF collection in Hawaii is SUSTAINABLE, does not make it so. The authors have stated otherwise (that MAF collection is NOT SUSTAINABLE).

Then you went on about DOA and DAA of Hawaiian MAF. I don't think that is what their research was about.

You also alluded to cyanide use in Hawaii. Well, there was one collector who did use cyanide, but I believe the State of Hawaii got him to go back to the Philippines. The actual problem causing degradation of the reefs is the widespread use of chlorox to capture certain species of food fishes. The State of Hawaii does not want to study this problem (it might make them look bad). Does anyone want to spill the beans on chlorox fishing?

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

Did the frags in the green house tell you so?
Im not making the connection?

Nope, you never do make a connection, tell some one helps you along

Sorry, no frags in our green house either kalk. Guess you need to change your "9 out of 10 working on a coral farm" quote as it's wrong Quite false reporting, your worse the the author :lol:

 

[Kalkbreath]

The current cultured market is not saturated. Its just that most of what is being offered is uninteresting.

That is part of the problem.....the hobbyists are so spoiled that only the brightest new morphs fetch any money or intersest. Blue isnt enough any longer ... super blue with Orange spots is want they want now. What was ultra SPS corals five years ago , cant be sold at dealer cost cost in todays market. Frags that were thirty bucks five years ago are ten bucks today or free from the local club! Its all changed.
The wild reefs look dull and brown compared to what the hobbyists demand their tanks look like in 2005........ even if the day comes when the farms are growing thousands of the flashing blue with orange dot slimers .......no one will want it any longer because its not rare to the hobby any more?look whats happened to corals like solitaryefforense , blue torts , and Capricornis these are offered buy the hundreds now , yet few buyers?
People used to buy brown torch corals and slightly collorfull SPS by the thousands each week. Steve Tyrees tank back in 1995 is dull and drab compared to what Bali ships each week today.
Red Monti , rose anemones , Blasto, Capricorn, bed brains, etc. I used to see one or two a year in Atlanta back in the mid 1990s. Today these once rare corals all over the place .... Selling average nice corals or anything but the brightest morphs has become a real challange. People would rather buy nothing then spend money on an average coral.
its gong to be a real challage to adress this issue in coming years.

"I want that (photoshoped) coral I saw on the Internet for 29.99" has set the bar so high that nature cant compete!



8O :

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, Lets go around the merry go round AGAIN. I believe we discussed the research by Tissot and Hallacher about two years ago on RDO. At that time, I posted some of their data for the Big Island that indicated that the abundance of aquarium fishes and the diversity was declining. They claimed that marine aquarium fishes (MAF) were being overharvested and demonstrated marked declines. Just because you state MAF collection in Hawaii is SUSTAINABLE, does not make it so. The authors have stated otherwise (that MAF collection is NOT SUSTAINABLE).

Then you went on about DOA and DAA of Hawaiian MAF. I don't think that is what their research was about.

You also alluded to cyanide use in Hawaii. Well, there was one collector who did use cyanide, but I believe the State of Hawaii got him to go back to the Philippines. The actual problem causing degradation of the reefs is the widespread use of chlorox to capture certain species of food fishes. The State of Hawaii does not want to study this problem (it might make them look bad). Does anyone want to spill the beans on chlorox fishing?

Peter Rubec

hen why are the fish populations still the same?Back in the Seventies they said the same mantra about the collectors?
Why still so many fish?
Your old enough to remember the" Global Cooling" alarm in the Seventies It was all over the place, thousands of scientists agreed on the silly notion that the Earth was entering a cooling cycle caused by human events!
Funny how time is the final judge of the validity scientific conclusions made by so called experts.
People have been screaming that the fish are running out in Hawaii for thirty years ........ Would it be fair to say the alarmists of the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s were WRONG about there being fish left on the Kona coast in the years 2005? :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

The current cultured market is not saturated. Its just that most of what is being offered is uninteresting.

That is part of the problem.....the hobbyists are so spoiled that only the brightest new morphs fetch any money or intersest. Blue isnt enough any longer ... super blue with Orange spots is want they want now...{snip}

I disagree with your assessment. IMO, most of the cultured corals being imported are simply too big.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Self remove

 

[Anonymous]

Small or large , the cost to produce each piece is the same.

Among other things, I believe this to be untrue.

 

[Kalkbreath]

self removed

 

[Anonymous]

Which is it? Boring corals or too large ultra corals!

Neither. I said they were 'uninteresting'. You added the value judgement, the other extreme adjectives and tried to make it binary.
IMO the discussion would be much more interesting if we actually read what others wrote.

Its about the same to glue a frag to floral pin as it is to glue it to a larger cement base. Whether it sets thirty days or three months during grow out, the sunshine and tide are free.So the duration time wont matter.

To claim that any variable doesn't matter seems odd.
There almost the same amount of maintenance that frags grown in a tank need as frags grown in the ocean need. Perhaps more as you actually have to send someone into the ocean to check, the ocean in unpredictable and space is not unlimited.





I believe you are ignoring the power of volume.

 

[Kalkbreath]

self removed

 

[PeterIMA]

This thread certainly got off course. How does coral culture, fragging, and the trade in corals (from Fiji) etc relate to the original posting about harvest of MAF from Hawaii? The moderator should have started a new thread.

Peter

 

[dizzy]

The actual problem causing degradation of the reefs is the widespread use of chlorox to capture certain species of food fishes. The State of Hawaii does not want to study this problem (it might make them look bad). Does anyone want to spill the beans on chlorox fishing?
Peter Rubec

I think Peter has hit the nail on the head here. The problem isn't really the MAF collectors at all, they just happen to be the usual easy target. Too bad Randy Fernley didn't take the opportunity to expose this shameful practice to a national audience. Instead he just wants to tell people how righteous he is. I've only been to Hawaii a couple of times, but I heard reports of bleach use several years ago. The fact collectors have to know this is going on, and yet remain silent while their livelyhoods are threatened boggles the mind. I hope someone in the know over there, finds the courage to do the right thing. I sure would like to hear Charles Delbeek weigh in on this subject. Somehow the self-anointed saviors of the reef have got to learn to prioritize. Bashing the MAF collectors may be great sport, but it won't save the reefs.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

This thread certainly got off course. How does coral culture, fragging, and the trade in corals (from Fiji) etc relate to the original posting about harvest of MAF from Hawaii? The moderator should have started a new thread.

Peter

Perhaps. However, discussions do wander, and splitting every thread that goes off topic would be problematic. If you think a thread should be split in the future, a request would be better than an admonishment.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes , but the costs associated with running a land based facility are great as well.( power outages, disease ,storm damage etc increase the costs over ocean based grow out. Both land based and ocean farms have advantages and drawbacks.
Where I find the biggest issue is small vs large product.
Both products start out quite the same with reguard to labor and facility needs during the first stages of production.
What changes is the repetition needed to produce multiple product cycles a within the set time frame.

One plan will be to grow ten large corals in per a given square foot area over six months time frame.

Plan two will be to grow sixty (six times more units) per square foot for the same six months time frame.
The first frag and glue event will be 10 fragments glued to large grow out bases suitable for six month old finished product.(large colonys)
The same starting point for the smaller production plan also includes ten coral fragments but these are glued to small bases due to the fact that only thirty days of grow out is needed for the much smaller finished product .
At this point both plans have used about the same amount of resources to lay down the first stages of farming.
its not until the after thirty days when the smaller corals are ready to harvest , that it becomes clear more coral fragment are needed to replant the small product plan.
With six cycles planned for the smaller product plan, the amount of coral fragments required is six times greater then the single cycle involved with the large product plan!
Where does the farmer get six times more mother colony stock?
Smaller finshed product plans require much more harvesting of fragments! In this example this would place six time more stress on wild mother corals!
One might ask the question "what has the mariculture done to help the reefs with such rapid monthly harvest?
The notion that captive grown mother corals would grow enough to support
monthly harvests is far reaching at best. (just ask ORA)
Again this is just one of the many reasons coral farmers sell bigger stock.

I still don't think you understand volume, and I think you are only looking at part of the picture. If you would like to discuss it further, lets honor Peters feelings and start another thread. .

 

[bookfish]

This thread certainly got off course. How does coral culture, fragging, and the trade in corals (from Fiji) etc relate to the original posting about harvest of MAF from Hawaii? The moderator should have started a new thread.

Peter

Perhaps. However, discussions do wander, and splitting every thread that goes off topic would be problematic. If you think a thread should be split in the future, a request would be better than an admonishment.

I agree that thread splitting is problematic and, I might add, laborious.
I think this forum requires discussions that wander as we disuss and explore different sides of related issues. Also, I've been busy the last 2 or 3 days.Jim

 

[PeterIMA]

Direct information of clorox fishing in Hawaii was reported by Payne (2001). After describing the effects of cyanide fishing on marine fish and coral reefs in the Philippines, Payne presented the following information provided to him by a scuba diver fishing in Hawaii.
"Back in 1978 I had a curious brush with this kind of fishing, only it was clorox fishing not cyanide fishing. I was working in Hawaii. One of the people assisting in our project was a diver who had had various jobs around Hawaii. . Sometime after that he found a new source of income-fishing for reef fish that were a popular delicacy with Japanese people living in, and visiting Hawaii. He said he could have sold any amount. The technique he used involved diving down on the reef with a squeeze bottle filled with chlorine bleach, and when he saw a small school of the desired fish, shooing them into some cavity in the coral and squirting a bit of chlorine bleach in after them. He'd wait a few minutes, then pick up the dazed and dying fish as they appeared at the entrance. He realized he was probably killing the reef because he had seen cavities in which he could remember having caught fish, but he had found that they were now dead skeletons with no fish in them. He told me he had to keep moving around Hawaii in order to encounter healthy populations of fish because they need undisturbed coral to live in. When I met him he had being doing this kind of fishing full time for several years and had just about completed a full circle of the big island. As incredible as it may seem this one man along with a handful of his fellow Clorox fishermen who sold fish to the same market, had apparently unabetted, wiped out large sections of the entire reef around the big island of Hawaii (about 300 miles of reef). He has since left Hawaii. He found a job that paid better in Florida."

In January 1998, two men were arrested by the Hawaiian Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR) for illegally using chlorine bleach (i.e., Clorox and Purex) to catch fish (Wilson 1998). The newsletter article noted that it was not easy to prove these cases in court since chlorine breaks down quickly and is virtually undetectable in the fish that are caught. The article went on to state "The practice of using chlorine to catch reef fish is considered selfish, cruel, and an incredible waste of our precious resources. Since chlorine either kills or drives all marine life away from the surrounding area, the place is literally STERILIZED. Not only are the target species (i.e., menpachi) caught, but other non-target species include those that are not very desirable for eating (i.e., angler fish) or those that are too small to eat. Those fish that are lucky enough to escape death from exposure to chlorine poisoning may still be affected in their abilities to reproduce or to detect food."


Payne, R., 2001. The Tragedy of the Live Fish Trade: Part I. Public Broadcasting System, Voice From the Sea, broadcast June 6, 2001, http://www.pbs.org/odessey/voice/200106 ... cript.html


Wilson, M. 1998. View Point: Clorine is poison to waters. Honolulu Star-Bulletin, February 7, 1998. http://www.starbulletin.com/98/02/edito ... oints.html

 

[Kalkbreath]

I think more people would have heard about this event in 1998 had it been true. The press would have had a field day with it. What police reports were ever found to back up the one guys report? Information like what were they fishing for and if they were immigrants from the Philippiness would be interesting to know.How this implicated the MO industry in Hawaii is Fleeting! The visiting Mexican nationals in my neck of the woods got busted slaughtering a goat for a week end feast in the subdivision. Does that implicate the fast food industry?
I find this in all likely hood that the report might come back saying that George Bush and Cheney were the ones caught with the bottle! Pinning the idustry for what two guys may or may not have done is just as silly.
The idea that fish dont hide in dead coral is silly as well. They hide in old tires and dead rock every where in the world where live coral is not an option. Fish hide in bleached dead coral in fish stores through out the USA as well , so the idea that bleached items cant sustain life near them is silly.
When an artical/paper stands behind the idea that a hand bottle of chlorine bleach can kill a large section of reef and render it useless for years to come, it places anything else they say in question as well. Unless these were really big squirt bottles and the Bleach had Plutonium in it , its impossible to have a chlorine plume with the that much punch. Even the heavy duety gear the California Gov used to kill off the Caulerpa in the bay was up graded several times before it actually was potent enough to kill the mutant weed.

HYPE