This hobby is what creates the dialogue.
Do you think the food fishing trade has discussions about responsible collection?
The sefood end users? I ate sushi last night and not once did anyone ponder the means of collection of the sashimi.(yet almost every clam I sell come with a speach about where it came from and if its collection impacted the reef)
Nobody visiting a public aquarium engages in the plight of the natives form where the whalesharks call home.
Few people even realize that the sharks in the Georgia aquarium were destine to be eaten.
This hobby is the only public venue for which any insight into the complex relationship native islanders have over the future of the reefs.
It is those island people whom have the reefs in their hands , we are these people's only voice to the outside world.
Do you think the food fishing trade has discussions about responsible collection?
The sefood end users? I ate sushi last night and not once did anyone ponder the means of collection of the sashimi.(yet almost every clam I sell come with a speach about where it came from and if its collection impacted the reef)
Nobody visiting a public aquarium engages in the plight of the natives form where the whalesharks call home.
Few people even realize that the sharks in the Georgia aquarium were destine to be eaten.
This hobby is the only public venue for which any insight into the complex relationship native islanders have over the future of the reefs.
It is those island people whom have the reefs in their hands , we are these people's only voice to the outside world.
Piero,
All excellent ideas that compliment other more "hands on" experiences the trade/hobby can use to connect with people of ALL ages.
IN my former business I was able to provide ocean awareness presentations at schools and libraries often with live animals like starfishes, sea urchins and many aquacultured animals.
The first time experience you can see on so many peoples' faces is a sure indicator you've connected with them on a very basic level. That can be priceless.
One of these young folks, (an aquarium hobbyist protoge from a young age), I know is now in his 3rd year marine bio at stanford... definitely was inspired by his abilility to culture corals so well as a young high school student.... I have many, many stories like this one... young and old all over the world....
After having worked in the Philippines and Indonesia, I firmly believe the fishers can have a bit better life in exchange for helping to manage a sustainable fishery. The trade/hobby however needs to drive and support this. Undervalued resource, underpaid fishers......
Great debate Piero.
I have my "jaded" days too.
It is just a theory...
Respectfully,
Mark
All excellent ideas that compliment other more "hands on" experiences the trade/hobby can use to connect with people of ALL ages.
IN my former business I was able to provide ocean awareness presentations at schools and libraries often with live animals like starfishes, sea urchins and many aquacultured animals.
The first time experience you can see on so many peoples' faces is a sure indicator you've connected with them on a very basic level. That can be priceless.
One of these young folks, (an aquarium hobbyist protoge from a young age), I know is now in his 3rd year marine bio at stanford... definitely was inspired by his abilility to culture corals so well as a young high school student.... I have many, many stories like this one... young and old all over the world....
After having worked in the Philippines and Indonesia, I firmly believe the fishers can have a bit better life in exchange for helping to manage a sustainable fishery. The trade/hobby however needs to drive and support this. Undervalued resource, underpaid fishers......
Great debate Piero.
I have my "jaded" days too.
It is just a theory...
Respectfully,
Mark
It would really lend more credibility to your voice Kalk if you attempted to respond to rebuttals before heaping on more of your statements to respond to...but maybe your strategy is to bury them so you don't have to respond?
I agree most of society doesn't care about environmental causes and just want to see the cool fish....or eat them...but I don't see he point here.
I think this is equivalent of stating that the existance of Christmas provides an opportunity to talk about Christmas. Maybe I'm just getting foggy after all the talkin'.
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recession us
(smacks forehead)The dialogue of ocean conservation would exist without the little glass boxes....we just wouldn't need to discuss hobby-related issues.Kalkbreath":20j87mqv said:
Sounds like that's more a reflection of the crowd you are eating with...try eating fish in front of me sometime...hehe.Kalkbreath":20j87mqv said:
Kalkbreath":20j87mqv said:
I agree most of society doesn't care about environmental causes and just want to see the cool fish....or eat them...but I don't see he point here.
Kalkbreath":20j87mqv said:
I think this is equivalent of stating that the existance of Christmas provides an opportunity to talk about Christmas. Maybe I'm just getting foggy after all the talkin'.
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clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
How about taking kids to the public aquarium to inspire them, or showing them Coral Reef Adventure on the BIIIIIG screen. The hobby isn't that significant in fostering enthusiasm for conservation.
Enthusiasm for conservation?
The coral reefs in America have management and management authority in place already. The reefs of the Keys and Hawaii have all they need in place to save them. When the political will to do it...kicks it in, it happens.
Inspiring, teaching and fostering enthusiasm in kids is a long view project.
Teaching kids is easy and puts the issue on hold til they grow up and grow into power and positions of influence.
Thats why pitching this all to kids is a resignation and a cop-out.
The kids will have nothing left to save if the fight is always put off til they grow up! They will not grow up and be heard for decades still!
By then....well by then__________ well, you fill in the blanks.
The aquarium trade is a paymaster that rivets attention immediately and can make divers change quickly. The reason it hasn't done much is found in the aloof, detached and exploitive nature of the old guard business types that "prospered" under Marcos and Suharto. These generally racist...non ethnic Filipino or non ethnic Indonesian kingpins viewed divers with distain and derision.
They were not the slightest bit interested in hearing about diver safety, fair trade, sustainability and all the other eco-banter that made their eyes glaze over.
They wanted deodorant and paperwork to cover themselves..and suffered quite a few hits until saved by MAC.
NOW YOU NEVER HEAR OF THESE GUYS DO YOU?
You only hear of the letter of commitment they signed years ago. Of course they did it w/ fingers crossed and never lived up to it...but MAC used it as a show of compliance, co-operation and other empty keywords.
Local enthusiasm, local incentive and local reform is 90% of the solution and has gotten 5% of the attention.
The attempt to manipulate consumer opinion to support non existant MAC fish has failed and failed miserably and completely.
This is the wrong tactic and always was.
The issue will be resolved in S.E.Asia....not by any groundswell of enlightenment and eco-consciousness here in America.
Steve
Enthusiasm for conservation?
The coral reefs in America have management and management authority in place already. The reefs of the Keys and Hawaii have all they need in place to save them. When the political will to do it...kicks it in, it happens.
Inspiring, teaching and fostering enthusiasm in kids is a long view project.
Teaching kids is easy and puts the issue on hold til they grow up and grow into power and positions of influence.
Thats why pitching this all to kids is a resignation and a cop-out.
The kids will have nothing left to save if the fight is always put off til they grow up! They will not grow up and be heard for decades still!
By then....well by then__________ well, you fill in the blanks.
The aquarium trade is a paymaster that rivets attention immediately and can make divers change quickly. The reason it hasn't done much is found in the aloof, detached and exploitive nature of the old guard business types that "prospered" under Marcos and Suharto. These generally racist...non ethnic Filipino or non ethnic Indonesian kingpins viewed divers with distain and derision.
They were not the slightest bit interested in hearing about diver safety, fair trade, sustainability and all the other eco-banter that made their eyes glaze over.
They wanted deodorant and paperwork to cover themselves..and suffered quite a few hits until saved by MAC.
NOW YOU NEVER HEAR OF THESE GUYS DO YOU?
You only hear of the letter of commitment they signed years ago. Of course they did it w/ fingers crossed and never lived up to it...but MAC used it as a show of compliance, co-operation and other empty keywords.
Local enthusiasm, local incentive and local reform is 90% of the solution and has gotten 5% of the attention.
The attempt to manipulate consumer opinion to support non existant MAC fish has failed and failed miserably and completely.
This is the wrong tactic and always was.
The issue will be resolved in S.E.Asia....not by any groundswell of enlightenment and eco-consciousness here in America.
Steve
I agree Steve...i guess i just latched onto the children reference because that's who i immdiately think of when presented with the image of inspiring a passion for conservation. Most adults seem to be a lost cause sometimes.
(hums to Whitney Houston)
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grape ape plant
(hums to Whitney Houston)
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grape ape plant
You seem not to understand that its not "Ocean conversation"that saves reefs.......... its islander economics which dictates if the reefs are smothered with agriculture run off or blown and crow barred to bits.Piero":kwm2urpn said:
Kalkbreath":kwm2urpn said:
the point is that the public cant begin to care if they never new that whales sharks are eaten every day in third world countries.
Or that Clams and Seahorses eaten by the tens of thousands each day.
Kalkbreath":kwm2urpn said:
Sure is, in fact its during the Christmas season that disscussions about past Christmases takes place.I think this is equivalent of stating that the existance of Christmas provides an opportunity to talk about Christmas. Maybe I'm just getting foggy after all the talkin'.
Its the hightened atmosphere in which the details are reviewed. More likely to talk about the reefs in a reef store , then a sports bar and more likely to talk about Christmas during a Christmas party then during the seventh inning stretch.
Likewise of the four to five hundred Aquacultured clams buyers that purchase Bivalves within my store each year ........ more then likely never would have realized that wild clam populations are in real danger.
I cant think of an alternate senerio in which so many average americans become intuned with the goings on in remote Pacific islands ................can you?
This exchange of information happens daily through out the public and private aquarium hobby.
But more importantly its the industry which gives islanders an alternative lively hood .
Millions of Americans wanting to help the reefs is a nice start, but millions of islanders wanting to help the reefs is the real solution.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Kalk wrote;
"I cant think of an alternate senerio in which so many average americans become intuned with the goings on in remote Pacific islands ................can you?
great point!
This exchange of information happens daily through out the public and private aquarium hobby.
But more importantly its the industry which gives islanders an alternative lively hood .
Millionsof Americans wanting to help the reefs is a nice start, but millions of islanders wanting to help the reefs is the real solution.
The problem I see with the scientific communities proprietary claim to the issue is that they are so inept at implementing strategies with the villagers that front the reefs, live off the reefs and basically own em.
If the inability to convert complex information to students is a derogatory mark on a school teacher...so is the inability to convert complex information, plans, programs, strategies etc, to the fisherman a derogatory mark on the reformer.
Science...practiced in social and cultural isolation that does not get translated into policy is what????
One can over analyze the situation all the want from afar and on high but the worth of a policy, a mission or a program is in the implementation of it in real life.
Clearly there is no scientific fix to the reefs issues without commercial people of 10 times the experience leading the way.
Until it gets real, its smoke. And smoke with no fire is worthless. [ to everyone except naive,out of touch funders..]
Steve
"I cant think of an alternate senerio in which so many average americans become intuned with the goings on in remote Pacific islands ................can you?
great point!
This exchange of information happens daily through out the public and private aquarium hobby.
But more importantly its the industry which gives islanders an alternative lively hood .
Millionsof Americans wanting to help the reefs is a nice start, but millions of islanders wanting to help the reefs is the real solution.
The problem I see with the scientific communities proprietary claim to the issue is that they are so inept at implementing strategies with the villagers that front the reefs, live off the reefs and basically own em.
If the inability to convert complex information to students is a derogatory mark on a school teacher...so is the inability to convert complex information, plans, programs, strategies etc, to the fisherman a derogatory mark on the reformer.
Science...practiced in social and cultural isolation that does not get translated into policy is what????
One can over analyze the situation all the want from afar and on high but the worth of a policy, a mission or a program is in the implementation of it in real life.
Clearly there is no scientific fix to the reefs issues without commercial people of 10 times the experience leading the way.
Until it gets real, its smoke. And smoke with no fire is worthless. [ to everyone except naive,out of touch funders..]
Steve
Kalk wrote;
"I cant think of an alternate senerio in which so many average americans become intuned with the goings on in remote Pacific islands ................can you?
- that is a really good point, Kalk. You got me thinking about the positives now...thanks.
Although I would hesitate to say that the 'awareness' affects of the trade - in its current state - make it a valuable conservation mechanism. But perhaps that could change...and maybe the trade could evolve into something like that....if a portion of EVERY marine ornamental purchase went towards conservation, and if every LFS promoted conservation and sustainable product because it actually did attract more business? If we could just make it 'cool' enough to be sustainable, then maybe people would not only pay unreasonable prices for the trendy stuff, but would pay extra for the bragging rights of sustainable livestock...I know...wishful thinking.
It must be too early. My pragmatic pessimism hasn't kicked in yet.
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"I cant think of an alternate senerio in which so many average americans become intuned with the goings on in remote Pacific islands ................can you?
- that is a really good point, Kalk. You got me thinking about the positives now...thanks.
Although I would hesitate to say that the 'awareness' affects of the trade - in its current state - make it a valuable conservation mechanism. But perhaps that could change...and maybe the trade could evolve into something like that....if a portion of EVERY marine ornamental purchase went towards conservation, and if every LFS promoted conservation and sustainable product because it actually did attract more business? If we could just make it 'cool' enough to be sustainable, then maybe people would not only pay unreasonable prices for the trendy stuff, but would pay extra for the bragging rights of sustainable livestock...I know...wishful thinking.
It must be too early. My pragmatic pessimism hasn't kicked in yet.
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Mercedes Benz Vario
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Piero writes;
"...if a portion of EVERY marine ornamental purchase went towards conservation, and if every LFS promoted conservation and sustainable product because it actually did attract more business? If we could just make it 'cool' enough to be sustainable,"
And thats a great notion, despite the fact that MAC/MAMTI boys have been vexed for years on how to do it.
Their solution was to tax every box of certified fish coming into the country.
Problem is, with the paucity of livestock they were able to generate after all these years, they would raise less money then the local girl scouts selling cookies.
This, better then anything I can say underlines the gulf between concept and reality and the gulf is wider with some then others.
Trout stamps, duck stamps, surcharges, taxes etc. must have credibility when levied on luxury items do they not?
and the disproportionate administrative charges cannot eat up all the money and expect enthusiasm in the marketplace.
I dare say that such a scheme in the wrong hands would be known as the trickle-down tax for conservation of reefs;
90 cents for us, 5 cents for paper and 5 cents for the fieldwork.
You say that "Your pragmatic pessimism hasn't kicked in yet.
Why not evolve the strategy from practical idealism? Steve
PS.
Dorky, straightlaced, money focused poindexters ...abusing environmental subject matter cannot evolve workable strategies for villagers and connect the dots to the marketplace when trapped w/in the limits of their own virginal imaginations.
"...if a portion of EVERY marine ornamental purchase went towards conservation, and if every LFS promoted conservation and sustainable product because it actually did attract more business? If we could just make it 'cool' enough to be sustainable,"
And thats a great notion, despite the fact that MAC/MAMTI boys have been vexed for years on how to do it.
Their solution was to tax every box of certified fish coming into the country.
Problem is, with the paucity of livestock they were able to generate after all these years, they would raise less money then the local girl scouts selling cookies.
This, better then anything I can say underlines the gulf between concept and reality and the gulf is wider with some then others.
Trout stamps, duck stamps, surcharges, taxes etc. must have credibility when levied on luxury items do they not?
and the disproportionate administrative charges cannot eat up all the money and expect enthusiasm in the marketplace.
I dare say that such a scheme in the wrong hands would be known as the trickle-down tax for conservation of reefs;
90 cents for us, 5 cents for paper and 5 cents for the fieldwork.
You say that "Your pragmatic pessimism hasn't kicked in yet.
Why not evolve the strategy from practical idealism? Steve
PS.
Dorky, straightlaced, money focused poindexters ...abusing environmental subject matter cannot evolve workable strategies for villagers and connect the dots to the marketplace when trapped w/in the limits of their own virginal imaginations.
Piero":h0ir3ay7 said:
People will never even get close to understanding just how sensitive the reef is to different conditions without actualy trying to keep it alive in an aquarium. The new reef aquarist can be quickly overwelmed in trying to learn the complexity of the reef in order to keep his reef tank alive, but in order to keep his reef tank alive he will make the effort to slowly learn this info.
You will never get this kind of education to stick in the minds of people by having them wach a documtory on a TV.
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
[email protected]
sorry Wayne...but I fail to see the absolute necessity of the hobby in creating reef conservation awareness. Not saying it doesn't open a few people's eyes her and there...and every bit helps, sure...
But you're implying that reef conservation awareness is contingent on people personally owning a reef tank? Cmon.....I don't need to personally witness a diatom outbreak or an RTN episode in my livingroom to care for the health of the world's reefs. As a kid in the 70s..I developed interest in ocean/reef conservation just from public aquariums, national geographic articles and Cousteau's Undersea World on TV!
I'm not saying that attempting to succeed in the hobby doesn't enlighten the less scientifically educated 'folk' about the dynamics of ecosystems. But that's probably more a result of the foolish people who dive into the hobby without educating themselves. The 'oooh, that's pretty i gotta have it' crowd probably isn't motivated by science anyhow....
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But you're implying that reef conservation awareness is contingent on people personally owning a reef tank? Cmon.....I don't need to personally witness a diatom outbreak or an RTN episode in my livingroom to care for the health of the world's reefs. As a kid in the 70s..I developed interest in ocean/reef conservation just from public aquariums, national geographic articles and Cousteau's Undersea World on TV!
I'm not saying that attempting to succeed in the hobby doesn't enlighten the less scientifically educated 'folk' about the dynamics of ecosystems. But that's probably more a result of the foolish people who dive into the hobby without educating themselves. The 'oooh, that's pretty i gotta have it' crowd probably isn't motivated by science anyhow....
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recession history united states
I never said that it was nessesary. You could have developed an interest in ocean conservation without having had exposure to public aquariums, national geographic articles and Cousteau's Undersea World on TV, but that exposure gave you more understanding and interest than if you had not had that exposure. You could have just been exposed to only what the school teachers told you in grade school, but without the working knowlage of the actual needs and having a real understanding of those needs, you would have a harder time deciding what needed to be done to protect that environment. That's why scientists bring corals out of the ocean and into aquariums, and scientists that don't do so, have a limited understanding of what is going on. In fact many times scientists have learned things from the hobiests that they were incapable of learning on their own.
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
[email protected]
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
[email protected]
sorry....maybe I'm missing a post...but I responded to what you stated:
"People will never even get close to understanding just how sensitive the reef is to different conditions without actualy trying to keep it alive in an aquarium."
"You will never get this kind of education to stick in the minds of people by having them wach a documtory on a TV. "
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causes of us recession
"People will never even get close to understanding just how sensitive the reef is to different conditions without actualy trying to keep it alive in an aquarium."
"You will never get this kind of education to stick in the minds of people by having them wach a documtory on a TV. "
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causes of us recession
Piero":mcjsgs47 said:
I was reffering to the average Joe on the street.
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
[email protected]
average joes...like people with access to televisions, magazines, Omnimax theatres, and public aquariums? that's my point.
nobody really needs a reef tank to necessarily understand and have an opinion about ocean/reef conservation.
Again...my interest in reef life and ocean conservation began in the 70s with public aquariums, magazines, and Cousteau on a fuzzy public broadcasting channel.
and again...of course I'm not saying the hobby doesn't do its own part to open eyes....but it's just one of many vehicles for education and awareness...not the only one.
I'd think that Coral Reef Adventure on a 3-story hidef screen across the country has been more instrumental in that regard than the hobby has been...and I'm guessing a movie makes much less of a negative impact on wild habitat than the hobby does.
So as far as bang-for-the-buck eye-opening awareness vehicles(whatever the medium)...I'm betting on the one that does its job without the importation and death of n-tons of marine life per year.
just me .02
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nobody really needs a reef tank to necessarily understand and have an opinion about ocean/reef conservation.
Again...my interest in reef life and ocean conservation began in the 70s with public aquariums, magazines, and Cousteau on a fuzzy public broadcasting channel.
and again...of course I'm not saying the hobby doesn't do its own part to open eyes....but it's just one of many vehicles for education and awareness...not the only one.
I'd think that Coral Reef Adventure on a 3-story hidef screen across the country has been more instrumental in that regard than the hobby has been...and I'm guessing a movie makes much less of a negative impact on wild habitat than the hobby does.
So as far as bang-for-the-buck eye-opening awareness vehicles(whatever the medium)...I'm betting on the one that does its job without the importation and death of n-tons of marine life per year.
just me .02
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Life insurance Forum
Lets put that to the test.
Piero,
whats the the biggest threat to the Carribean reefs?
Whats the greatest threat to Tongan reefs,
Whats the greatest threat to Philippine reefs/
Whats killing Austrailian reefs.
Whats troubling Fiji reefs.
What is the biggest threat to Hawaiin reefs?
Whats the biggest threat to giant clam populations world wide?
Please only respond with Knowlege you picked up by watching
Piero,
whats the the biggest threat to the Carribean reefs?
Whats the greatest threat to Tongan reefs,
Whats the greatest threat to Philippine reefs/
Whats killing Austrailian reefs.
Whats troubling Fiji reefs.
What is the biggest threat to Hawaiin reefs?
Whats the biggest threat to giant clam populations world wide?
Please only respond with Knowlege you picked up by watching
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