Conservation Forum
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clarionreef
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Eric,
This is long overdue and welcome.
There are a number of other groups that should be in there as well.
However, I cannot believe that people who head large organizations cannot participate in un-choreographed, unscripted exchanges with people of different opinion.
Actually, they should be the best at it and well able to defend their policies and opinions.
Stepping out into arenas where you may lose the public argument is the very definition of Democracy and freedom of expression.
Surely your friends can take care of themselves and the moderators have already shown that they can keep order when they're not off diving in the South Pacific.
Steve
This is long overdue and welcome.
There are a number of other groups that should be in there as well.
However, I cannot believe that people who head large organizations cannot participate in un-choreographed, unscripted exchanges with people of different opinion.
Actually, they should be the best at it and well able to defend their policies and opinions.
Stepping out into arenas where you may lose the public argument is the very definition of Democracy and freedom of expression.
Surely your friends can take care of themselves and the moderators have already shown that they can keep order when they're not off diving in the South Pacific.
Steve
Righty,
Thanks for the email and follow-up. I wouldn't mind to brainstorm the name of the forum but I was thinking " The Conservation Forum".
Please set it up and the rest will follow. The staff that will be participating in this forum are already prepared to join in.
I would be happy to co-moderate and I appreciate the offer. Please send me details on what I would be responsible for.
Thanks and regards,
Eric
Thanks for the email and follow-up. I wouldn't mind to brainstorm the name of the forum but I was thinking " The Conservation Forum".
Please set it up and the rest will follow. The staff that will be participating in this forum are already prepared to join in.
I would be happy to co-moderate and I appreciate the offer. Please send me details on what I would be responsible for.
Thanks and regards,
Eric
Thanks Eric,
Before we can do anything, I need to run it by the powers that be.
What I need is a description of the forum. What is the forum for? For instance, The industry Behind the Hobby forum is described as "A forum dedicated to discussing industry issues such as sustainable collection techniques, legislation affecting the hobby, and industry reform." I would also need to know why the new forum would be necessary, as in 'why wouldn't we just discuss that stuff in the industry forum?'.
My main concern that I would also like to see addressed before moving forward would be that the new forum could be a splash over of this forum (MAC or other NPO bashing) or that it could go the other way and be some kind of pulpit for NPOs. I say this not to be argumentative or negative, just that we like to think very hard before adding something new. :mrgreen:
RDO is careful about adding forums because it is easy to have so many forums as to be overwhelming. When we do add a forum, we need to have someone who is committed to running it, and shepherd it through its birth.
Let me know what you think either here, or in a pm.
Thanks for your interest!
Before we can do anything, I need to run it by the powers that be.
What I need is a description of the forum. What is the forum for? For instance, The industry Behind the Hobby forum is described as "A forum dedicated to discussing industry issues such as sustainable collection techniques, legislation affecting the hobby, and industry reform." I would also need to know why the new forum would be necessary, as in 'why wouldn't we just discuss that stuff in the industry forum?'.
My main concern that I would also like to see addressed before moving forward would be that the new forum could be a splash over of this forum (MAC or other NPO bashing) or that it could go the other way and be some kind of pulpit for NPOs. I say this not to be argumentative or negative, just that we like to think very hard before adding something new. :mrgreen:
RDO is careful about adding forums because it is easy to have so many forums as to be overwhelming. When we do add a forum, we need to have someone who is committed to running it, and shepherd it through its birth.
Let me know what you think either here, or in a pm.
Thanks for your interest!
The idea is a good one but dont you think it would be more effective if the whole issue of conservation was death with in the main forum where hobbyist could be educated and be part of the solution.
A discussion of the USL for example will educate hobbyist. They would learn to avoid purchasing those species and hopefully chastize the lfs and online store that continue to offer them for sale.
It would give them the heads up about cyanide and avoid fish from those regions where the use of cyanide is still rampant.
It would give industry a chance to explain the progress it has made in sustainable fish and coral propagation.
It would give NGO's a chance to explain there position to hobbyists.
Maybe they (the hobbyists) will be moved to take polical action to change what is happening today instead of defending it with dated ideological thinking. (I hope the sump police doesnt request that this post be put down there)
A discussion of the USL for example will educate hobbyist. They would learn to avoid purchasing those species and hopefully chastize the lfs and online store that continue to offer them for sale.
It would give them the heads up about cyanide and avoid fish from those regions where the use of cyanide is still rampant.
It would give industry a chance to explain the progress it has made in sustainable fish and coral propagation.
It would give NGO's a chance to explain there position to hobbyists.
Maybe they (the hobbyists) will be moved to take polical action to change what is happening today instead of defending it with dated ideological thinking. (I hope the sump police doesnt request that this post be put down there)
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
This forum also works,
Everyone can post here and many have.
We have been a focal point for years and visited by people from all sides and lurked by many, many more.
The same protocols are in place here as would be in a conservation forum.
After thinking on it a bit, I must say that there is no issue that draws fewer people in general then conservation issues.
98% of the hobby will never be educated by a forum they will never have the interest to visit...and the ones who need it the most are the ones least likely to visit.
Demand side tactics of behavioral modification in live tropical fish does not work as its not a comestible and kills no cute dolphins. Our trade is oblivious to the ethical and moral considerations as a whole and the sentient ones among us constitute very little consumer power. We live the proof of that daily here.
As an importer and a wholesaler for some 25 years...I can honestly say that I have received no pressure what so ever to do the right thing from the marketplace....none!
All the pressure for me to change came from my own motivation and never from the dealers. Dealers who also didn't get 'pressure' from their consumers.
Many of the funder inspired new recipes for reef reform have hitched their wagons to a possibility of rising consumer demand for better moral choices ...choices that they themselves could not lead or inspire for.
Being so out of touch w/ the trade they have hardly noticed the failure except for the low shows of interest at MACNA et al. unless there were no competing presentations.
People are in this hobby for good times...not to save any part of the world I'm sorry to say.
Filipinos cannot save their reefs thru a scheme that requires our permission, our consent or our "enlightened" choices.
We wouldn't even insure our own fisheries sustainablity without our own governments insistance and fear of the law. Filipinos need to do it like that.
Would we ask Japanese buyers to help us save our tuna from ourselves by educating their consumers about its ecological situation? Of course not!
The eco-labeling thing was a cute idea thats run its course and spent many years to the exclusion of other remedies... We need to learn from the errors and choose a better strategy.
We should not stick to failed strategies simply because we have invested in them.
The issues will resolve from the other side of the ocean for local reasons and we can and have helped with this running seminar of ours.
Perhaps we better stick with this one and not suffer an even less visited one.
Steve
Everyone can post here and many have.
We have been a focal point for years and visited by people from all sides and lurked by many, many more.
The same protocols are in place here as would be in a conservation forum.
After thinking on it a bit, I must say that there is no issue that draws fewer people in general then conservation issues.
98% of the hobby will never be educated by a forum they will never have the interest to visit...and the ones who need it the most are the ones least likely to visit.
Demand side tactics of behavioral modification in live tropical fish does not work as its not a comestible and kills no cute dolphins. Our trade is oblivious to the ethical and moral considerations as a whole and the sentient ones among us constitute very little consumer power. We live the proof of that daily here.
As an importer and a wholesaler for some 25 years...I can honestly say that I have received no pressure what so ever to do the right thing from the marketplace....none!
All the pressure for me to change came from my own motivation and never from the dealers. Dealers who also didn't get 'pressure' from their consumers.
Many of the funder inspired new recipes for reef reform have hitched their wagons to a possibility of rising consumer demand for better moral choices ...choices that they themselves could not lead or inspire for.
Being so out of touch w/ the trade they have hardly noticed the failure except for the low shows of interest at MACNA et al. unless there were no competing presentations.
People are in this hobby for good times...not to save any part of the world I'm sorry to say.
Filipinos cannot save their reefs thru a scheme that requires our permission, our consent or our "enlightened" choices.
We wouldn't even insure our own fisheries sustainablity without our own governments insistance and fear of the law. Filipinos need to do it like that.
Would we ask Japanese buyers to help us save our tuna from ourselves by educating their consumers about its ecological situation? Of course not!
The eco-labeling thing was a cute idea thats run its course and spent many years to the exclusion of other remedies... We need to learn from the errors and choose a better strategy.
We should not stick to failed strategies simply because we have invested in them.
The issues will resolve from the other side of the ocean for local reasons and we can and have helped with this running seminar of ours.
Perhaps we better stick with this one and not suffer an even less visited one.
Steve
just my 2 cents,
I think this industry and conservation should work hand in hand; so, why not just use this forum and keep it simple? If the "reps" are ready to join in, why not start right here right now? Especially since MAMTI is about the industry trade.
8)
I think this industry and conservation should work hand in hand; so, why not just use this forum and keep it simple? If the "reps" are ready to join in, why not start right here right now? Especially since MAMTI is about the industry trade.
8)
However, in many different ways, the industry is being pressured to behave responsibly and this occurs at multiple levels. Whether it's a legislated %/quota of aquacultured corals for export or pressure from social issues or personal ethics, there is much that is changing.cortez marine":r3a9jh1k said:This forum also works,
Everyone can post here and many have.
We have been a focal point for years and visited by people from all sides and lurked by many, many more.
The same protocols are in place here as would be in a conservation forum.
After thinking on it a bit, I must say that there is no issue that draws fewer people in general then conservation issues.
98% of the hobby will never be educated by a forum they will never have the interest to visit...and the ones who need it the most are the ones least likely to visit.
Demand side tactics of behavioral modification in live tropical fish does not work as its not a comestible and kills no cute dolphins. Our trade is oblivious to the ethical and moral considerations as a whole and the sentient ones among us constitute very little consumer power. We live the proof of that daily here.
As an importer and a wholesaler for some 25 years...I can honestly say that I have received no pressure what so ever to do the right thing from the marketplace....none!
All the pressure for me to change came from my own motivation and never from the dealers. Dealers who also didn't get 'pressure' from their consumers.
Many of the funder inspired new recipes for reef reform have hitched their wagons to a possibility of rising consumer demand for better moral choices ...choices that they themselves could not lead or inspire for.
Being so out of touch w/ the trade they have hardly noticed the failure except for the low shows of interest at MACNA et al. unless there were no competing presentations.
People are in this hobby for good times...not to save any part of the world I'm sorry to say.
Filipinos cannot save their reefs thru a scheme that requires our permission, our consent or our "enlightened" choices.
We wouldn't even insure our own fisheries sustainablity without our own governments insistance and fear of the law. Filipinos need to do it like that.
Would we ask Japanese buyers to help us save our tuna from ourselves by educating their consumers about its ecological situation? Of course not!
The eco-labeling thing was a cute idea thats run its course and spent many years to the exclusion of other remedies... We need to learn from the errors and choose a better strategy.
We should not stick to failed strategies simply because we have invested in them.
The issues will resolve from the other side of the ocean for local reasons and we can and have helped with this running seminar of ours.
Perhaps we better stick with this one and not suffer an even less visited one.
Steve
Also, I think that it's important to make industry reform a multidisciplinary, multi-faceted movement. I think eco-labeling may only NOW be able to emerge in an environment where a high enough percentage of the retail public is aware of the threats to reefs, that it could succeed.
That being said, I find I most strongly support models in which the nature of reform brings local value (read: revenue and jobs) directly to the local community.
So, since this is a fairly diverse forum I think it would be an appropriate place to get multi-sector feedback on ideas and programs. -Jim
I would like to see it in it own forum. With it being here in the Industry forum I think alot of hobbyists who might be interested in "conservation" might not think to look for it in the Industry forum. I also think that the title "industry forum" might scare off some people because they might think that this is for industry folks. Just my two cents worth
Chris
Chris
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Jim writes;
However, in many different ways, the industry is being pressured to behave responsibly and this occurs at multiple levels.
Jim,
Behaving responsibly and going thru the motions to fool people are different. Most environmentalism today IMO is more sophisticated web work and information spin then ever, don't you think?
Whether it's a legislated %/quota of aquacultured corals for export or pressure from social issues or personal ethics, there is much that is changing.
From a reef dealers point of view...coral replication and multiplication is about securing supply, not saving reefs.
If its about saving reefs then the fish issues are paramount as catching fish w/ poison and crowbars kill thousands of mother colonies in a dozen countries or so routinely. Coral only comes from 4-5.
The fish issues are the core of the eco-labeling, certification schemes. Jumping onto the certification of coral is a diversion to something easier and in a fixed position.
If its farmed...the creators of the product already know far, far more then anyone trying to stick their label on the achievement.
Allocation of permits and quotas in the country of origin is what controls the take and can keep it sustainable.
That being said, I find I most strongly support models in which the nature of reform brings local value (read: revenue and jobs) directly to the local community. -Jim
I agree!
I hope the wisdom of employing, empowering and understanding the importance of the local priority will grow.
This imperial "think globally...act globally...ignore the locals" movement that has been so en vogue this past decade has to end. Its where the money is for now I know but its not where success can be achieved.
Success will be achieved only if you...
1] re-locate the poor locals w/ police and bulldozers or
2] involve them seriously and share as co-horts and equals. Not urban tokens...but the real local stakeholders.
Steve
However, in many different ways, the industry is being pressured to behave responsibly and this occurs at multiple levels.
Jim,
Behaving responsibly and going thru the motions to fool people are different. Most environmentalism today IMO is more sophisticated web work and information spin then ever, don't you think?
Whether it's a legislated %/quota of aquacultured corals for export or pressure from social issues or personal ethics, there is much that is changing.
From a reef dealers point of view...coral replication and multiplication is about securing supply, not saving reefs.
If its about saving reefs then the fish issues are paramount as catching fish w/ poison and crowbars kill thousands of mother colonies in a dozen countries or so routinely. Coral only comes from 4-5.
The fish issues are the core of the eco-labeling, certification schemes. Jumping onto the certification of coral is a diversion to something easier and in a fixed position.
If its farmed...the creators of the product already know far, far more then anyone trying to stick their label on the achievement.
Allocation of permits and quotas in the country of origin is what controls the take and can keep it sustainable.
That being said, I find I most strongly support models in which the nature of reform brings local value (read: revenue and jobs) directly to the local community. -Jim
I agree!
I hope the wisdom of employing, empowering and understanding the importance of the local priority will grow.
This imperial "think globally...act globally...ignore the locals" movement that has been so en vogue this past decade has to end. Its where the money is for now I know but its not where success can be achieved.
Success will be achieved only if you...
1] re-locate the poor locals w/ police and bulldozers or
2] involve them seriously and share as co-horts and equals. Not urban tokens...but the real local stakeholders.
Steve
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