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Anonymous
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I think since Eric is an industry guy, that its ok here. Borderline, but ok. 
Hugo's tank dilution?
- Thread starter Kalkbreath
- Start date
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Anonymous
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So, I can start a thread here about Steve's pond over flowing? Peters dogs escaping? My speeding ticket? My co-workers kids sniffles?
Which part does it fall under, industry issues? Does it effect the industry at all?
Which part does it fall under, industry issues? Does it effect the industry at all?
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Anonymous
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GreshamH":2odb01nf said:
Its a case by case basis. Most of those would prolly get moved. Unless you sere speeding to get away from Fish and wildlife, or the kid's sniffles were due to the newly imported 'coral flu'.
Which part does it fall under, industry issues? Does it effect the industry at all?[/quote]
Industry issues and legislation affecting the hobby, maybe.
Its a discussion about an industry person perhaps leaving the industry and why, so I don't see a reason to move it.
That said, I understand you feelings about the speculation.
And I believe there may be much more of an industry connection to this story than most of you realize. And kalk is right, there are real lessons to be learned in all of this. One lesson might be that relationships can change. Something we should all carefully consider before we go into parnerships and such. And I speak from experience on this.
Mitch
Mitch
I do think this is important and something to learn from. I for one have been much more careful in whom I allow to visit my home. All of us that are out there in the public do have to be careful. Give of yourself on these forums, speak at hobby events, but be careful of where you draw that line between public and private.
I know I have routinely heard of stores, hobbyists, and even public aquariums ripped off by people who know about fish as they only steal the most expensive livestock and equipment. This is merely the next evolution in the day and age when people get killed for cutting someone off while driving.
I know I have routinely heard of stores, hobbyists, and even public aquariums ripped off by people who know about fish as they only steal the most expensive livestock and equipment. This is merely the next evolution in the day and age when people get killed for cutting someone off while driving.
Another store in towns employees would routinely sabotage the store I worked for reefs and other stores in town. They would typically toss a couple pennies into the tanks. We stopped this problem by enclosing all of the tanks and then putting netting material above the setups so they couldnt toss something over and into the sump. Another store busted the guy doing it but could never link it back to the store he worked for.
I have to admit that I still hope that it is found out that this was a weird convergence of strange, chance circumstances of accidental origin rather than vandalism. I hate to think that there are people out there that would kill innocent animals as part of a vendetta.
I too, think it's relevant to the industry and therefore the forum.
Eric put out the information himself - including the "sabotage theory" and the fact that he got the police involved. Mpst postings I've seen here and elsewhere have been sympathetic and compassionate toward Eric, so I don't think anyone has gone out of their way to offend him.
I'm sure many of us in the industry and in the hobby have seen or heard about sabotage and theft firsthand... Like I said earlier in this thread, some years ago a local store was broken into and its systems soaped. That's no laughing matter. Ditto with mechanical failure... we've all heard about Rio pump meltdowns, small tanks that seem to be known for cracking, and other common issues that we might consider isolated, if not for the sharing of information and we find it's not a localized problem... the more info we can pool, the better.
We've all either heard of, seen or experienced instances of "lookers" coming into shops with large drink cups, only to find later that an expensive frag is missing... I would never have thought of this shoplifting tactic if I hadn't read about it, and now I keep a close eye whenever somebody walks in with a "Big Gulp"... sharing information is important. I know just about everybody's name who comes into my shop but I've had things lifted - and I know who's done it, but without solid proof, I can't prosecute - so I just keep a watchful eye so it doesn't happen again.
As for the speculation issue on what happened with Eric's tank - I think most of us, if not all of us have been tactful in what we've said about it. I've stated repeatedly that I don't have an opinion one way or another, however I am interested in the outcome... if it was a mechanical failure I'd be interested to know what happened, because I use auto-topoff on most of my systems and it would be a benefit for myself and others to know just what happened. If it was indeed sabotage, I'd like to see the person or persons responsible brought to justice. Both scenarios IMO are relvant to the industry and the hobby - having that information could feasibly prevent the same type of scenario from happening to us.
Jenn
Eric put out the information himself - including the "sabotage theory" and the fact that he got the police involved. Mpst postings I've seen here and elsewhere have been sympathetic and compassionate toward Eric, so I don't think anyone has gone out of their way to offend him.
I'm sure many of us in the industry and in the hobby have seen or heard about sabotage and theft firsthand... Like I said earlier in this thread, some years ago a local store was broken into and its systems soaped. That's no laughing matter. Ditto with mechanical failure... we've all heard about Rio pump meltdowns, small tanks that seem to be known for cracking, and other common issues that we might consider isolated, if not for the sharing of information and we find it's not a localized problem... the more info we can pool, the better.
We've all either heard of, seen or experienced instances of "lookers" coming into shops with large drink cups, only to find later that an expensive frag is missing... I would never have thought of this shoplifting tactic if I hadn't read about it, and now I keep a close eye whenever somebody walks in with a "Big Gulp"... sharing information is important. I know just about everybody's name who comes into my shop but I've had things lifted - and I know who's done it, but without solid proof, I can't prosecute - so I just keep a watchful eye so it doesn't happen again.
As for the speculation issue on what happened with Eric's tank - I think most of us, if not all of us have been tactful in what we've said about it. I've stated repeatedly that I don't have an opinion one way or another, however I am interested in the outcome... if it was a mechanical failure I'd be interested to know what happened, because I use auto-topoff on most of my systems and it would be a benefit for myself and others to know just what happened. If it was indeed sabotage, I'd like to see the person or persons responsible brought to justice. Both scenarios IMO are relvant to the industry and the hobby - having that information could feasibly prevent the same type of scenario from happening to us.
Jenn
I first learned of this several days before it appeared here.. From an LFS while we were carrying on about industry issues. (And grumbling about how we were having a hard time getting the drygoods I asked for.) -- We speculated back and forth about the same old tired ideas you've seen in this thread and came to exactly the same result... - We simply don't know.
The thing of it is though, we didn't take the discussion around the corner to the bar and proceed to shout it back and forth over the pool table....
So would it really be better served moving this to the Sump? 8O
The thing of it is though, we didn't take the discussion around the corner to the bar and proceed to shout it back and forth over the pool table....
So would it really be better served moving this to the Sump? 8O
GratefulDiver":1pdswmzz said:
I guess that's the reason people are still talking about this case. It's a little like the Natalie Hollaway or the Duke Lacross Team cases. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I just don't think it should be all that hard to prove or disprove mechanical failure. Surely there is someone in the Houston area with enough troubleshooting experience to reach a definitive conclusion.
SciGuy2":wryq5qth said:
Tricky question. The correct answer is that it depends. That being the case, it is now one of the rarest corals in the Caribbean, with very low fecundity and very specific, narrow habitat tolerances. You won't be finding it on any live rock. Also, only one person in the world is successfully growing it to the point of propagating it. Eric very likely would have been the second. Among those that have failed with it include Dirk Peterson of Rotterdam Zoo, the pioneer of captive coral reproduction.
After reading this thread, I have a few things to contribute. And I think this is very relevant to the industry. I know three private coral growers and one LFS that have external sumps or tanks plumbed to their main syste and accesible to anyone with a crow bar! 8O
First, it is clear from everything I have read that this was done from the outside sump by a perp and it wasn't an accident. The fact that the drain far from the sump shows salt stains proves that a syphon was run from the sump to some distance away from it in order to dump the tank water in a place that was not going to be seen...whether the perp thought about the salt stains or not, he did think enough to make sure the water didn't just end up in a 400 gallon pond around the shed that housed the sump.
Second, the ONLY way to do this would be to run the syphon at the same time as running a garden hose into the tank. This tells us two things. It tells us that the perp needed two hoses. I assume that there was a hose outside the house hooked up to a faucet as most people have...but not many poeple have a second hose lying around for no reason. So unless there was another hose, the perp had to actually carry an extra hose with him to do the job...and one long enough to run a distance from the sump to where the salt stains where left behind. The other thing this method tells us is that the perp was there for some time and had to monitor the whole thing because either the garden hose or the syphon would run faster and then the sump would run dry (ending the syphon) or overflow. Since there was no indication of a sump overflow, the perp had to stand there and keep a balance between the syphon and the hose for a period of maybe two to four hours.
Third, if you assume the above is correct (that our man stood around the sump shed for a couple of hours) you have to assume that he had some serious testicular fortitude to be standing on someone's property vandalizing something of great value for that long. Vandalism is usually a hit and run crime. This means that the person did some serious planning and really thought this all through before doing it and also that he had a serious grudge that would make all the planning and risk worth while.
Finally, I am not much for revenge personally, but I have participated in some serious planning sessions on how to pull some pretty diabolical actions against a person. And if you are going to get someone, it's worth doing it right... You don't just want to cost them money or screw up their property...you want to cost them time, you want to screw with their heads, and, most of all, you want to mess up their lives with the act. This syphoning thing may seem ridiculous to a lot of us because if you wanted to screw a tank you would just pour a gallon of bleach in the sump or something equally simple....but not if you are a person who takes pleasure in executing evil plans against someone. I have heard of some comparable crimes committed to screw someone over when there were much simpler things that could have been done with much lower risk. Sometimes, it is not the outcome that gives the perp pleasure...getting there is half the fun. And if my assesment is anywhere close to correct, the perp read about his victim writing his posts with tears in his eyes and probably took great pleasure in it. :x
I think there are only two reasons to do it this way instead of just poisoning the tank. Either you want to do it in such a fashion that confuses the hell out of person and has him and all who know him questioning his reef keeping abilities (as we have seen in this and other threads!), or you want to do it in a way that is not easily proven as sabotage. This method would not only have the community questioning the reef keeper's ability and doubting whether or not it was a top off malfunction...but it would also have the police doing the same!
I would like to see the police try to prove who did this. They won't even be able to point to him purchasing some poison. They won't be able to find an empty bottle of bleach in his car. They won't find finger prints in the house. They won't be able to prove anything at all. Unless the perp told someone (and any good planner knows you don't involve anyone or brag about something like this), they will never catch him.
First, it is clear from everything I have read that this was done from the outside sump by a perp and it wasn't an accident. The fact that the drain far from the sump shows salt stains proves that a syphon was run from the sump to some distance away from it in order to dump the tank water in a place that was not going to be seen...whether the perp thought about the salt stains or not, he did think enough to make sure the water didn't just end up in a 400 gallon pond around the shed that housed the sump.
Second, the ONLY way to do this would be to run the syphon at the same time as running a garden hose into the tank. This tells us two things. It tells us that the perp needed two hoses. I assume that there was a hose outside the house hooked up to a faucet as most people have...but not many poeple have a second hose lying around for no reason. So unless there was another hose, the perp had to actually carry an extra hose with him to do the job...and one long enough to run a distance from the sump to where the salt stains where left behind. The other thing this method tells us is that the perp was there for some time and had to monitor the whole thing because either the garden hose or the syphon would run faster and then the sump would run dry (ending the syphon) or overflow. Since there was no indication of a sump overflow, the perp had to stand there and keep a balance between the syphon and the hose for a period of maybe two to four hours.
Third, if you assume the above is correct (that our man stood around the sump shed for a couple of hours) you have to assume that he had some serious testicular fortitude to be standing on someone's property vandalizing something of great value for that long. Vandalism is usually a hit and run crime. This means that the person did some serious planning and really thought this all through before doing it and also that he had a serious grudge that would make all the planning and risk worth while.
Finally, I am not much for revenge personally, but I have participated in some serious planning sessions on how to pull some pretty diabolical actions against a person. And if you are going to get someone, it's worth doing it right... You don't just want to cost them money or screw up their property...you want to cost them time, you want to screw with their heads, and, most of all, you want to mess up their lives with the act. This syphoning thing may seem ridiculous to a lot of us because if you wanted to screw a tank you would just pour a gallon of bleach in the sump or something equally simple....but not if you are a person who takes pleasure in executing evil plans against someone. I have heard of some comparable crimes committed to screw someone over when there were much simpler things that could have been done with much lower risk. Sometimes, it is not the outcome that gives the perp pleasure...getting there is half the fun. And if my assesment is anywhere close to correct, the perp read about his victim writing his posts with tears in his eyes and probably took great pleasure in it. :x
I think there are only two reasons to do it this way instead of just poisoning the tank. Either you want to do it in such a fashion that confuses the hell out of person and has him and all who know him questioning his reef keeping abilities (as we have seen in this and other threads!), or you want to do it in a way that is not easily proven as sabotage. This method would not only have the community questioning the reef keeper's ability and doubting whether or not it was a top off malfunction...but it would also have the police doing the same!
I would like to see the police try to prove who did this. They won't even be able to point to him purchasing some poison. They won't be able to find an empty bottle of bleach in his car. They won't find finger prints in the house. They won't be able to prove anything at all. Unless the perp told someone (and any good planner knows you don't involve anyone or brag about something like this), they will never catch him.
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