Deepthroat letter from the Philippines re; MAC
- Thread starter clarionreef
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Big mistake made by governments relying on NGOs to solve huge environmental problems such as the use of cyanide in the Philippines. Poverty and lack of education do not mix with environmental concerns. Shouldn't be a priority for the Filipino Gov to work on those two issues to find solutions to the environmental problem? What can be accomplished in a land without law?
clarionreef
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Agreed again...
Poverty and lack of education [ social work] do not mix with environmental [scientific] concerns.
They should...but they don't as most scientifically oriented folks don't dance....carry a tune or factor in the human respect and cultural factors as well as they should.....the lack of which sabatoges their own effectiveness in coming up with the remedies they are good at getting funding for.
Repeat...good at getting funded but not good at getting implemented.
This understanding is beyond most scientific folks yet is a form of intelligence none the less. There is far more to human intelligence then the scientific and yet....wowed by the scientific....huge social and cultural errors are made in the puppetmastering of the poor by scientifically oriented funders.
Eco labeling and top-down bookkeeping to save reefs is officially a hugely flawed strategy that has taken years to debunk
Bernt Cord at Packard....I'm talking to you.
Steve
Poverty and lack of education [ social work] do not mix with environmental [scientific] concerns.
They should...but they don't as most scientifically oriented folks don't dance....carry a tune or factor in the human respect and cultural factors as well as they should.....the lack of which sabatoges their own effectiveness in coming up with the remedies they are good at getting funding for.
Repeat...good at getting funded but not good at getting implemented.
This understanding is beyond most scientific folks yet is a form of intelligence none the less. There is far more to human intelligence then the scientific and yet....wowed by the scientific....huge social and cultural errors are made in the puppetmastering of the poor by scientifically oriented funders.
Eco labeling and top-down bookkeeping to save reefs is officially a hugely flawed strategy that has taken years to debunk
Bernt Cord at Packard....I'm talking to you.
Steve
I believe each community should manage its own resources with local and national enforcement assistance.
To do this, the communities need much better education INCLUDING fair trade with thier valuable but limited resources.
There are more groups working toward these goals now, but unfortunately, it is a slow process....
To do this, the communities need much better education INCLUDING fair trade with thier valuable but limited resources.
There are more groups working toward these goals now, but unfortunately, it is a slow process....
Mark.
That true even in American Samoa, even here in the good old US of A’s back yard, environmental education is needed at all levels. The reefs here remind me a lot of those in the Philippines, we even still have blast fishing and chemical fishing going on :twisted: . The reefs here are still degrading and it’s not going to stop unless the people stop what’s causing their decline.
Empowering the community is a key; educate them in the need to manage their resources long term (sustainably), give them the knowledge and tools needed to do so, and provide them with a way of covering the cost of the management with some monitory gains (paying jobs and profits) and a positive outcome can be achieved.
The local community may not be able to stop coral reef habitat loss from high temperatures or increased storm activities, but it can reduce the local stressors that are part of their reefs decline, and by doing so they will increase their habitats ability to recover.
Lofa' from American Samoa
Mike
That true even in American Samoa, even here in the good old US of A’s back yard, environmental education is needed at all levels. The reefs here remind me a lot of those in the Philippines, we even still have blast fishing and chemical fishing going on :twisted: . The reefs here are still degrading and it’s not going to stop unless the people stop what’s causing their decline.
Empowering the community is a key; educate them in the need to manage their resources long term (sustainably), give them the knowledge and tools needed to do so, and provide them with a way of covering the cost of the management with some monitory gains (paying jobs and profits) and a positive outcome can be achieved.
The local community may not be able to stop coral reef habitat loss from high temperatures or increased storm activities, but it can reduce the local stressors that are part of their reefs decline, and by doing so they will increase their habitats ability to recover.
Lofa' from American Samoa
Mike
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
Mike,
You mean work from the village up...listen to them, get wet, work up a sweat and learn what makes em tick?
Wow....theres an approach that hasn't been very popular in reform notions for awhile.
Keep it up!
Steve
PS Why not ask some fisherfolk how they'd feel about better bookkeeping as a way to save coral reefs. :lol:
You mean work from the village up...listen to them, get wet, work up a sweat and learn what makes em tick?
Wow....theres an approach that hasn't been very popular in reform notions for awhile.
Keep it up!
Steve
PS Why not ask some fisherfolk how they'd feel about better bookkeeping as a way to save coral reefs. :lol:
Hey Steve,
Well the Coral farms CORL creates are Community Coops (wow say that 5 times real fast!) heheh.... any ways some book keeping is needed, and its up to them to do it. We keep track of all the corals they produce for the rehabilitation work and sale to the MOI. they must keep track of worker-owners hours.
Tracking will also be our job and yes we will be doing our own certification of the products they produce.
I started a new thread on what's going on here in Am. Samoa and what our group is currently up to.
feel free to jump in and ask questions and make suggestions
Mike
Well the Coral farms CORL creates are Community Coops (wow say that 5 times real fast!)
heheh.... any ways some book keeping is needed, and its up to them to do it. We keep track of all the corals they produce for the rehabilitation work and sale to the MOI. they must keep track of worker-owners hours. Tracking will also be our job and yes we will be doing our own certification of the products they produce.
I started a new thread on what's going on here in Am. Samoa and what our group is currently up to.
feel free to jump in and ask questions and make suggestions
Mike
clarionreef
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- San Francisco
Saving reefs thru fastidious book keeping would not happen....
I ment of course that book keeping is the procedure to track activity....not the activity itself.
Any monkey can keep and collate paperwork.
Like substituting scorekeeping for playing baseball or pretending that accounting generates profit instead of the actual work....it is a procedure, not a gold standard.
Taken out of the context of the aquarium trade dalliances [ on again off again ] with the thing...certification in lieu of deeds is an absurdity that you couldn't pass off anywhere. Exhalting scorekeeping skills where no runs were made is ...is....what?
Take certified driving without learning to drive or scuba diving without learning to scuba dive......or the one in question....certified environmentally sustainable activity without achieving it.....etc.
Only in a shallower culture that has evolved spin and image creation as the pinnacle of performance would find favor in such a movement....oooops
Perhaps the bias toward paperwork in lieu of fieldwork arose thru it being the only skill set available to the generators of the project...and they wanted to skew it to jive with their own mindset.
Steve
PS. As I said....any monkey can put numbers into a template. [deleted ]
I ment of course that book keeping is the procedure to track activity....not the activity itself.
Any monkey can keep and collate paperwork.
Like substituting scorekeeping for playing baseball or pretending that accounting generates profit instead of the actual work....it is a procedure, not a gold standard.
Taken out of the context of the aquarium trade dalliances [ on again off again ] with the thing...certification in lieu of deeds is an absurdity that you couldn't pass off anywhere. Exhalting scorekeeping skills where no runs were made is ...is....what?
Take certified driving without learning to drive or scuba diving without learning to scuba dive......or the one in question....certified environmentally sustainable activity without achieving it.....etc.
Only in a shallower culture that has evolved spin and image creation as the pinnacle of performance would find favor in such a movement....oooops
Perhaps the bias toward paperwork in lieu of fieldwork arose thru it being the only skill set available to the generators of the project...and they wanted to skew it to jive with their own mindset.
Steve
PS. As I said....any monkey can put numbers into a template. [deleted ]
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clarionreef
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- San Francisco
I may have the staff photos mixed up;
He might be the MBA [ remember him?] who put the rising, yearly profits on the chart from the benefits of dealing in non-existant yet certified fish.
Steve
He might be the MBA [ remember him?] who put the rising, yearly profits on the chart from the benefits of dealing in non-existant yet certified fish.
Steve
Mike,
I'm surprised to hear there are such destructive fishing practices there as well..... 8O
It would seem that our good old US gov should be able to provide better assistance or at least help develop better enforcement....
How wide spread is it?
I'm surprised to hear there are such destructive fishing practices there as well..... 8O
It would seem that our good old US gov should be able to provide better assistance or at least help develop better enforcement....
How wide spread is it?
Righty":1ilir0ch said:
I just don't like it because every time we go that route, a conversation that has real potential goes spiralling downhill into a useless pile of "humor".
I am always hopeful that this forum can accomplish real change in our industry but we need to discuss issues and solutions, not just hurl insults and rehash the same old "this didn't work" or "that can't work" dialog. It's naysaying at it's finest. I also understand that people get frustrated that their ideas haven't been implemented and there is then a tendency to be negative and sarcastic but I'm not sure that really accomplishes much.-Jim
Jim,
This group is not capable of making things happen . The sky is always falling, nothing good ever seems to happen . Gloom , doom and disaster everywhere one listens .
I feel otherwise but I am in the minority on this forum , and enjoy it .
I am of the opinion that good things can be accomplished but it will take a united effort and will not happen overnight . I do not know all of the answers but I can assure you that this is not it . If you look around you will find some of the same pessimistic views that imploded AMDA are at work here . Think about it , AMDA has less members than the number of fish stores in the great deer hunting state of Wisconsin .
Time to admit defeat and move on , change is on the horizon----- Race Foster, D.V.M.
This group is not capable of making things happen . The sky is always falling, nothing good ever seems to happen . Gloom , doom and disaster everywhere one listens .
I feel otherwise but I am in the minority on this forum , and enjoy it .
I am of the opinion that good things can be accomplished but it will take a united effort and will not happen overnight . I do not know all of the answers but I can assure you that this is not it . If you look around you will find some of the same pessimistic views that imploded AMDA are at work here . Think about it , AMDA has less members than the number of fish stores in the great deer hunting state of Wisconsin .
Time to admit defeat and move on , change is on the horizon----- Race Foster, D.V.M.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Geez Louise!
I remember the last defender of MAC writing here years ago depicting our very own Mitch in a cartoon with a pointy aluminum hat deriding his conspiracy theories about the non existant MAMTI PROJECT. [turns out MAMTI was real ].
That same defender was as caustic as they come. He no longer is as even he has seen what MAC has become.
There are no MAC folks left for you to defend guys..
They have quit or been fired.
The one the monkey might represent is also gone.
The MBA is gone.
There is no one to offend and the "breakdown in dialogue" you hint at has not happened as there has not been a defense of MACs achievements in a long time....even longer then there has been an achievement!
This is a testimonial to them...not a debate or dialogue.
All our friends from the ol days MAC theology are gone....
There is nothing left but the money.
The "be nice" posturing and knee jerk lecturing to MACs detractors and victims would make sense if this were not true.
They have done their damage and have drifted into irrelavancy except for the legacy of squandering the chances for reforming this trade when there was so much to save and so much goodwill.
Be nice to the greatest cons we have seen in this trade?
Be nice to the wolf in sheeps clothing....? Be nice to who?
Who are they now? Where is there one?
Has anyone seen them lately? :roll:
Point out a believer in MAC today and I'll be nice to him. [Race...even you don't believe in them anymore.]
Steve
I remember the last defender of MAC writing here years ago depicting our very own Mitch in a cartoon with a pointy aluminum hat deriding his conspiracy theories about the non existant MAMTI PROJECT. [turns out MAMTI was real ].
That same defender was as caustic as they come. He no longer is as even he has seen what MAC has become.
There are no MAC folks left for you to defend guys..
They have quit or been fired.
The one the monkey might represent is also gone.
The MBA is gone.
There is no one to offend and the "breakdown in dialogue" you hint at has not happened as there has not been a defense of MACs achievements in a long time....even longer then there has been an achievement!
This is a testimonial to them...not a debate or dialogue.
All our friends from the ol days MAC theology are gone....
There is nothing left but the money.
The "be nice" posturing and knee jerk lecturing to MACs detractors and victims would make sense if this were not true.
They have done their damage and have drifted into irrelavancy except for the legacy of squandering the chances for reforming this trade when there was so much to save and so much goodwill.
Be nice to the greatest cons we have seen in this trade?
Be nice to the wolf in sheeps clothing....? Be nice to who?
Who are they now? Where is there one?
Has anyone seen them lately? :roll:
Point out a believer in MAC today and I'll be nice to him. [Race...even you don't believe in them anymore.]
Steve
clarionreef
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- Location
- San Francisco
Race,
AMDA was formed as a reform group...not an advertising gimmick for you and MAC .
AMDA would not be your monkey and accept that fish in the mail was a good thing for a marine dealer organization to support.
Returning your check was the start of a new kind of group that wasn't a rubber stamp for someone else commercial interest and a group that wouldn't sell out for the sake of inclusion and free hotel bills.
It was kept from being MACs rubber stamp and played a large role in redefining what the trades true interest is and what needs to happen in the reform of this trade.
The shallowest, stupidest and most treasonous thing AMDA could've done is sell out to you and MAC.
Now....that MAC is collapsing in disgrace, what seemed ill advised once may now appear to be courageous.
.
If you ever stand for something beyond self interest....you may one day understand what we did.
Now in Democratic tradition, we have elections every two years and the next administration can plead its case.
Steve
PS. I'm not even on the BOD anymore
.
AMDA was formed as a reform group...not an advertising gimmick for you and MAC .
AMDA would not be your monkey and accept that fish in the mail was a good thing for a marine dealer organization to support.
Returning your check was the start of a new kind of group that wasn't a rubber stamp for someone else commercial interest and a group that wouldn't sell out for the sake of inclusion and free hotel bills.
It was kept from being MACs rubber stamp and played a large role in redefining what the trades true interest is and what needs to happen in the reform of this trade.
The shallowest, stupidest and most treasonous thing AMDA could've done is sell out to you and MAC.
Now....that MAC is collapsing in disgrace, what seemed ill advised once may now appear to be courageous.
.
If you ever stand for something beyond self interest....you may one day understand what we did.
Now in Democratic tradition, we have elections every two years and the next administration can plead its case.
Steve
PS. I'm not even on the BOD anymore
.
Steve ,
I will be the first to admit that the MAC has had their share of problems . I have never stated otherwise . Having said that, I still believe that their original mission is correct even though it was clearly designed not to benefit me. In fact ,as an etailer it excludes me.
Nevertheless I wish them well and if they do not succeed then perhaps we can all learn from their venture and a new era will dawn . Failure is not a defeat , it is merely a lesson .
Steve , I hear lots of criticism but no solutions . Perhaps the two of us should get together and develope a dialogue . I will admit that I am short on answers but I am willing to learn ,improve and move forward.
Just curious ,why is it that when I mention AMDA you bring up the MAC ? I have no involvement in either, you should know that better than anyone.
In any event , I appreciate your comments---------Race
I will be the first to admit that the MAC has had their share of problems . I have never stated otherwise . Having said that, I still believe that their original mission is correct even though it was clearly designed not to benefit me. In fact ,as an etailer it excludes me.
Nevertheless I wish them well and if they do not succeed then perhaps we can all learn from their venture and a new era will dawn . Failure is not a defeat , it is merely a lesson .
Steve , I hear lots of criticism but no solutions . Perhaps the two of us should get together and develope a dialogue . I will admit that I am short on answers but I am willing to learn ,improve and move forward.
Just curious ,why is it that when I mention AMDA you bring up the MAC ? I have no involvement in either, you should know that better than anyone.
In any event , I appreciate your comments---------Race
Steve,
" Fish in the mail"--- isn't that not how your company sent out it's livestock to the retail segment . Think about that statement " fish in the mail" . Should fish not be sent in the mail to anyone including retailers ? There are groups that think so and you are agreeing with them . I think that "fish in the mail" is a fact of life in this hobby. I guess that I look at
things too deeply. Pardon me.
Thanks, Race
" Fish in the mail"--- isn't that not how your company sent out it's livestock to the retail segment . Think about that statement " fish in the mail" . Should fish not be sent in the mail to anyone including retailers ? There are groups that think so and you are agreeing with them . I think that "fish in the mail" is a fact of life in this hobby. I guess that I look at
things too deeply. Pardon me.
Thanks, Race
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