US Government to prohibit cyanide use and begin enforcement

[Anonymous]

I don't disagree with your intentions, Wayne, but your "Do it or else" attitude wearies me. You aren't the international authority on the hobby or the trade, so what makes YOU the voice of doom? You've been spewing the same rhetoric over and over for the last several years, and despite teasing us with 'big announcements' that never come, and your incessant postings about a trade you have no knowledge about, erode your credibility each time you put your fingers on the keyboard here.

I'm in a far more likely position to 'do anything' about it than you are, and I'm clever enough to know that I'm just a little fish in a big pond. But I'm also clever enough to know that if enough of us little fishes do the right thing, change will come about without the need for NGOs, governments or folks like you, trying to intervene in a trade you don't even work in.

If you really want to "do something" how about getting your facts straight, and educating hobbyists and retailers?

Jenn

Jenn, sorry but this was the big announcment.
The days of trolling the reefs for cyanide fish and the damage cyanide causes to the reef and the critters that live thereon are numbered.

The Government is involved now. What do you think the results will be?

And yes Chip and Jenn. I have taken your good advice.

I have done something.

Wayne

Just what have you *done*? You copied and pasted a paper from a meeting in May from an organization you don't belong to. And now you're acting like you are personally going to bring the hammer down on a trade you still have no real clue about.

Or did I miss something?

Seems that 'your' big announcement isn't even yours - it's somebody else's. Gee how did I know not to pin any big expectations on that? :roll:

Jenn

Ummm, Wayne, like Jenn said, just what part of this is "your" doing? Are you claiming the work of Andy Bruckner and Co as your own?

COMPLETE RUBBISH... I hope the mods ask you to move on for doing such things.

If you called em twice, you'd only get thru the first time

 

[mark@mac]

ok guys,

i'll let you in on a project i've been working on since my departure from MAC.... and I would like your opinion.... I'm not so sure having "certified fish" is the way to go, especially since there is no way to determine whether or not they have been caught with cyanide.

Some of you may be aware of the observers that the long line tuna fishing boats employ to "verify" they are "environmentally responsible" and are not catching sea turtles and sea birds too much...

What do you all think of "verified cyanide free" fish by using a similar approach?

The idea would be to have marine biology students trained to become "observers" to observe and monitor the fisherman to make sure they are NOT using cyanide..... I have more details for my plan, but no time to post at the moment.

Looking forward to your comments....

Mark

 

[PeterIMA]

The fact that the USCRTF announced the formation of a CDT committee (a term coined by Vaughan Pratt of the IMA) does not mean that they have a CDT that can be implemented in the USA. They will review various cyanide testing procedures (like the MAC said it would) and determine the best methods and the best means to implement. I just hope that they find some real experts in the federal agencies that they plan to tap for panel members. My take is that the real experts (the ones that I know about) are not associated with the federal government. Perhaps the MAC can turn over whatever they learned with their grant from the MacArthur foundation. Overall, I am as skeptical as the other posters on this thread from the industry.

If asked, I will provide information to support the USCRTF effort. Right now, we are preparing a report for the USCRTF from the Sustainability Symposium held in Las Vegas, which I helped to organize. The report will make recommendations concerning the best means to ensure a sustainable trade. CDT is just one aspect of what may be needed.

Peter Rubec Ph.D.

 

[clarionreef]

Perhaps the MAC can turn over whatever they learned with their grant from the MacArthur foundation.

????
What grant, how much and the result was???
See, I never made his stuff up.
Squandering the issue and the money in cavalier fashion to no acclaim is OK if you're Paris Hilton but not when you have a public trust and obligation.
What amazing scams this new grant washing eco-culture perpetrates as it leaves a trail of unsolved problems and with small and token efforts to solve them at that.
The only certainty is that 100% of the money is gone w/ 0% progress in the matter at hand.
Steve
Keywords;
CDT?... MACARTHUR FOUNDATION... 300K SPENT!.... HUH :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

The idea would be to have marine biology students trained to become "observers" to observe and monitor the fisherman to make sure they are NOT using cyanide.....

Any sort of "3rd party" check would be great Mark. - I've been banging the CDT drum for a couple of weeks or whatever now, but what you're working on has the added benefit of checking against blast fishers, groundings and if collectors switch to something a little less insidious like quinaldine.

Thanks for the update Mark, looking forward to hearing more!

Norm


Edit: Its obviously also a lot easier to put in place than a CDT too!

 

[clarionreef]

Gotta train em and supply em before you can check em.
The constructive action must come before the police action.
Good net collectors have no need to backslide....and don't as historical precendents never cited indicate.

The insecurity comes from white reformers who do not trust the trainings effectiveness, competence and completeness because we have become conditioned to accept and expect failure from our own efforts.
True, the poorer the training, the greater the desire to check and CDT everyone.
I understand this western insecurity.
We are better checkers and paper reviewers then we are field teachers.
Steve

 

[mark@mac]

Steve,

There would be training for MAF collectors as well as for other "fishers" using destructive practices (i.e blast fishers and live food fishers using cyanide)... And yes, there would be "training" before (or in conjunction with) the "checking"/observer training and implementation....

The people trained to become oberservers would be Filipinos.... Most likely including some of the "environmentally concerned" but realistic youths/college students I have met and worked with over the past year.

In addition to the above, there would be environmental/marine sustainability education worked into the local education system to teach the teachers to teach the youngsters from knee high how to treat our mother earth better and help to ensure themselves a better future.

Any comments from anyone other than Norm? (Thanks Norm)

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Eric Boerner]

As far as "the Government is involved now, watch out!"... A CDT is years away, implementing it in a real world environment is at least a decade away, and enforcing the results will likely be forgotten.

 

[dizzy]

Mark,
How about getting a lie detector machine. While it might not be legal for prosecution purposes, you could have a policy of not buying the livestock from the fishers who failed the test. This could be done in addition to having the observers. It might even pay to hook the observers up to the machine once in a while just to be sure they weren't being bribed or something. This could be done much quicker than waiting for a new CDT.
Mitch
PS
I wouldn't mind hooking the wholesalers up to one of the machines and asking a few questions as well. :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

Mark,
If there would be training first....then you will be able to trump the MAC experience from the get-go as they still cannot do this first step after all these years.
The thought to be so easy initial, training of a thousand divers phase is still in the starting gate.
As their trainers are not able....the trainings are no good.
If you can train first....and well, this follow up monitoring will be easier.
Mitch,
Hook up the exporters first.
These guys have not the plausible deniability that the importers have.
They have current experience with cyanide supply lines...
Importers , on the other hand simply don't really know anymore.
Th abundance of net caught fish from the Philippines is also unknown to them.
The clean villages that never delt with MAC should be supported more,,
There are Filipino divers that have not used cyanide for 20 years now.
Steve

 

[dizzy]

Steve,
By all means hook the exporters up as well. I don't blame todays importers for the cyanide problem. I believe they want the best fish possible. I do think some of them have done other things that have hurt retailers. Time will tell.

 

[JT]

There are Filipino divers that have not used cyanide for 20 years now.

Yeah, but how many are still in PI or have they been sent off to Tonga, Fiji, or somewhere else? :wink:

 

[clarionreef]

There are dozens of genuine...and aging netcollectors who have not backslid and still never been abroad .Their children are now using nets as dad taught them!
The ones who were sent abroad, spread out a lot futher then Tonga.
Most of the Red Seas fishes this trade has been partaking of came form these forgotten village divers.
Belize as well. Vanuatu is making quite a splash on all Filipino dive teams.
Palau was set up on Filipino net catchers.
Some are off to Hawaii soon....and so on.
Private enterprise picked up on the talent far, far ahead of the reform Incs. and now are making the greatest advances.
When these guys rotate home, they reinforce the net collecting and handling techniques.
Netting is requsted by divers back home and is often taken from a Tonga or a Belize supply and finds its way back to the Philippines for others to use.
There is still a line of net catchers waiting for a gig abroad...as there is no particular incentive for their talent back home.
Refusing to work for MACs unpleasant and often imperious city based bosses and low pay has kept them out of the MAC camp and of course MAC has no idea what they are missing as they value fealty and submissiveness over effective skills and field talent.
Meanwhile, they just catch w/ nets and wait for a foreign contract.
Steve
PS. I know plenty looking for work.

 

[mark@mac]

Intersting comments regarding the Philippine exporters.... I can't say none of them are involved in supplying cyanide but I don't believe most if any actually are supplying the stuff. In fact, I believe most exporters are more at the mercy of the "middlemen" or coordinators who buy the fish from the collectors and sell to the exporters. Often, the exporters are forced to buy fish they don't need or want just to get the fish they want. I believe most exporters don't really know who is using cyanide these days, or perhaps some don't want to know; or if they have an idea, they may "turn a blind eye", just to get the fish they need.

Mark

 

[clarionreef]

Mark,
In the 80's exporters had a much more direct hand in it.
They were premeditated pushers of the stuff...and controlled divers by manipulating the supplyline.
In the 90's they started to back away and sever the direct link to them as divers got arrested and expected them to free them thru the usual bribes....and working it out w/ local enforcers.
Now the middle men sell virtually all the cyanide but often financing from their exporter... :wink:
Exporters have engineered the plausible deniability status as a result of all the hullabaloo.
Plenty of villages have gone netcaught and the tradition is spreading. It would spread faster if the kind of nets and training that they needed were available.
By keeping the nets out of their hands and hogging all the press, funds and "glory'....non fisherman oriented eco-groups have done great disservice.
They have a history of not jiveing well with fisherfolk and this central truth has kept them from what could be easy victories for the fisherman and the reefs..
W/ half the MAC budget for this year alone...we could train 1,000 divers left who use poison and put MAC out of busioness.
Denying them the emergency and the alarm needed to seperate funders from their money.
Competition is something we all live in in this trade...everywhere except in this faux-reform business.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Some to ago I posted that if industry does not itself deal with the cyanide,
the Government will.

Early this year I asked those who still support cyanide or close their eyes to its use to 'stay tuned'.

Here you go:

The United States Coral Reef Task Force (USCRTF) held its 15th meeting in Washington, DC on May 4th. The Task Force adopted a significant new resolution addressing the collection of marine ornamentals using cyanide and other poisons. This resolution sets forth actions designed to identify and develop a usable detection test for cyanide in fishes and also for the development of improved methods of enforcing laws against the use of poisons.
I suspect that legislation on the books (the Lacey Act) will be used to charge, convict and imprison those who deal with cyanide caught fish or ought to know that the fish was cyanide caught.

Better find a source for net caught fish if you plan to stay in business.

english cannot be your native language-adopting resolutions means nothing, and the lacey act is just that-a no teeth act

 

[Anonymous]

I don't disagree with your intentions, Wayne, but your "Do it or else" attitude wearies me. You aren't the international authority on the hobby or the trade, so what makes YOU the voice of doom? You've been spewing the same rhetoric over and over for the last several years, and despite teasing us with 'big announcements' that never come, and your incessant postings about a trade you have no knowledge about, erode your credibility each time you put your fingers on the keyboard here.

I'm in a far more likely position to 'do anything' about it than you are, and I'm clever enough to know that I'm just a little fish in a big pond. But I'm also clever enough to know that if enough of us little fishes do the right thing, change will come about without the need for NGOs, governments or folks like you, trying to intervene in a trade you don't even work in.

If you really want to "do something" how about getting your facts straight, and educating hobbyists and retailers?

Jenn

Jenn, sorry but this was the big announcment.
The days of trolling the reefs for cyanide fish and the damage cyanide causes to the reef and the critters that live thereon are numbered.

The Government is involved now. What do you think the results will be?

And yes Chip and Jenn. I have taken your good advice.

I have done something.

Wayne

Just what have you *done*? You copied and pasted a paper from a meeting in May from an organization you don't belong to. And now you're acting like you are personally going to bring the hammer down on a trade you still have no real clue about.

Or did I miss something?

Seems that 'your' big announcement isn't even yours - it's somebody else's. Gee how did I know not to pin any big expectations on that? :roll:

Jenn

Ummm, Wayne, like Jenn said, just what part of this is "your" doing? Are you claiming the work of Andy Bruckner and Co as your own?

COMPLETE RUBBISH... I hope the mods ask you to move on for doing such things.

If you called em twice, you'd only get thru the first time

should have been done about 3 years ago, heh