The Irony

[Rascal]

Vitz - Are you confusing things? Race posted more in 10 minutes than I did in the last 2 days. Who is "hounding"? And where is he now? Back in his little safe-house at RC. Doing what? Avoiding questions.

This from the person who claims that he wants betterment in this industry.

 

[Anonymous]

That's a very nice compliment. And that is precisely the point I've been trying to make. As custodians to the livestock we sell, WE have the advantage over MO companies when it comes to quality. There is NO other possibility as long as all of the livestock is disseminated equally. If O2O, or any of the other wholesalers, is playing favorites, then THAT is the issue that needs to be addressed here.

I think that's the problem with Race and the e-commerce drop-shippers. They KNOW that they can't compete with good b&m stores, so they have to 'cheat' the system and do the whole drop-ship-cherry-pick scenario.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Discotoo]

I only wanted him to address my original question - From 6 weeks ago - Why are his fish better than mine?

Looks like the publicist put something together to answer your question :roll:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=61

 

[danieldm]

What a load of KRAP!

 

[Anonymous]

it's just another excellent (though false) marketing ploy-and i'll bet it works wonderfully for him, too

 

[Anonymous]

however, to be fair, there's also this:

"I don't want to suggest there aren't some very knowledgeable people at the retail level and some quality stores to buy unique fish. But there are also many establishments we would consider to be substandard, and others that employ clerks that either cannot, or should not, offer compatibility or care advice. I also don't want to suggest that all online providers are a better option. There are inferior online providers as well.

"What is important is that you do your research and be able to distinguish between a good and knowledgeable supplier and one that isn't. In the end, you need to decide who you are willing to trust with your investment. Whatever channel you decide - retail or online - and whoever you choose to invest in, it will be well worth your time to look at your options first and then make an informed decision."

 

[JennM]

What a load of KRAP!

That doesn't even begin to describe it.

Oh well at least he insulted us all equally

FWIW I sent the link to a friend/customer who is just starting out with her first 55 g marine tank. We were chatting on Yahoo and I pasted the link - she read it and responded to me. Here is what she wrote, with apologies for the caps - I am cutting and pasting exactly what she wrote:

DONT THINK IT IS BETTER TO GET THEM MAILED TO ME
I THINK I WOULD RATHER GO INTO A STORE AND SEE WHAT ACTUALLY I AM GETTING AND HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE PERSON SELLING ME THE FISH OR WHAT EVER I AM PURCHASING EXPLAIN TO ME HOW TO TAKE CARE OF IT AND THEN IF I HAVE A PROBLEM THAT STORE IS JUST A SHORT (LONG) DRIVE AWAY FROM ME.

I'd say that sums it up - and for what it's worth, my store is responsible for getting her into the hobby. Her (now) ex-husband had a tank, and when she moved out on her own, she decided she wanted one too. We're helping her every step of the way.

Jenn

 

[Rascal]

I also don't believe it all to be true, but again, it does reiterate my contention that the issue is with QM/O2O and not with DRF&S.

 

[JennM]

I also don't believe it all to be true, but again, it does reiterate my contention that the issue is with QM/O2O and not with DRF&S.

How do you figure? It may be "true" as far as QM/O2O's supply is concerned - DFS may get dibs on all the best stuff that QM receives, but what about the "10 or so other suppliers" that Race mentioned in his discussions here... does that mean that DFS gets first crack at ALL the cherry stuff from all 11 suppliers?

Even if it does, there are more than 11 suppliers out there to buy from - and DFS isn't the only etailer.

Granted, it's hard to find suppliers that don't permit this practice, but they are out there. My worry is that if the "United B&M of America" all decide to support only those few wholesalers that don't permit this practice, it could backfire on all of us and there won't be enough supply of anything to go around. That might just be a temporary glitch, because if all the independents quit buying from 104th and environs, there'd be a pretty serious economic backlash that could force some kind of change - but it's quite a gamble, IMO.

Danieldm's post in the other thread was very thought-provoking indeed.

Jenn

 

[shawnz28]

Jim, I am fine with your decision to keep me off reefs.org . We all have to make choices and you should stand by yours . I do not believe though that you will see any vendor that wants to sell fish supplies or otherwise to me be allowed to sponsor Reefs.org or AMDA . Under todays scenario that would be clear conflict of interest. The hobbyist as well should give careful consideration to who they support in this industry.

Am I reading this right or reading into this or is he threatening RDO with trying to keep vendors or manufacturers they deal with from advertising on RDO?

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/gene ... agesid=394

 

[JennM]

Ewww what's that smell?

Jenn

 

[Len]

Jim, I am fine with your decision to keep me off reefs.org . We all have to make choices and you should stand by yours . I do not believe though that you will see any vendor that wants to sell fish supplies or otherwise to me be allowed to sponsor Reefs.org or AMDA . Under todays scenario that would be clear conflict of interest. The hobbyist as well should give careful consideration to who they support in this industry.

Am I reading this right or reading into this or is he threatening RDO with trying to keep vendors or manufacturers they deal with from advertising on RDO?

I'm still not quite clear what actions Reefs.org could take to appease Dr. Foster. If he's seeking that we censor content to protect his or anyone's interest, it's something we are unwilling to do. We acknowledge this decision may cost our community advertising revenue, but it is something we are unwilling to compromise on.

Also, for absolutely clarity, Dr. Foster was asked to cease his participation in this forum not because of his stances, agendas, or opinions, but rather the manner in which he chose to express them. If he only knew how many people (of all "sides" in this industry) have voiced to me the inappropriateness of his recent actions here, he might take some time to reflect on how he's conducted himself in the past few days. If he is willing to make an effort to participate without the baiting and flaming, I would have no qualms inviting him back.

For the record, Reefs.org takes no sides on industry issues. Reefs.org encourages open, constructive, vigorous debate.

 

[Discotoo]

Am I reading this right or reading into this or is he threatening RDO with trying to keep vendors or manufacturers they deal with from advertising on RDO?

thats how he is, if you can't beat 'em BUY 'em 8)

 

[Len]

Ewww what's that smell?

Jenn

Hey Jenn, not to nitpick or to single you out (as others have done similiarly), but I think we would all be better off posting more constructive comments. Critique to your heart's delight, but make every effort to insure the critique is constructive and respectful.

 

[JennM]

Thanks for the clarification, Len And I appreciate the stance of RDO in this matter. Personally I think it's appropriate and right on the mark.

I missed most of the brou-ha-ha the other night (dangit!), but I have no quarrel with Race returning to the forum, as long as he abides by the same rules of decorum that you expect of us all. Sure, some of us push the envelope at times But that's what makes it interesting - and looking at some of the more recent postings, I'd say that all of this has brought out some very thought-provoking ideas and even a few newcomers to this forum.

Jenn

 

[JennM]

Ewww what's that smell?

Jenn

Hey Jenn, not to nitpick or to single you out (as others have done similiarly), but I think we would all be better off posting more constructive comments. Critique to your heart's delight, but make every effort to insure the critique is constructive and respectful.

Duly noted

Jenn

 

[Rascal]

Jenn - Dr. Foster is a supreme marketer. I've realized that marketing only carries so much weight, and it's likely NOT going to be ME that exposes his lies. I have no doubt that day will come as he can only run from the truth for so long. To be honest, I doubt very many people are even going to read that crap...too much Blah blah blah. Show me some pictures of pretty fish...click! Regardless, I think those other wholesalers that cater to Dr. Foster by providing product to him (assuming that they DO exist) need to be exposed. I think I have a right to know who is providing the advantage to our (collectively) competition. I still can't buy from a wholesaler in LA because a store the next town over used to buy from them...why is this any different?

 

[JennM]

Some more good points, Rascal.

I have had dealings in the past with a good wholesaler, who also sells direct to hobbyists through another division of the company - at a different price scale than they sell to B&Ms. I am not up to date with their recent policies, but at the time I did not have a problem with this *because* they would not sell direct to anyone who lived within a reasonable radius of a B&M that bought from them.

Meaning: If Joe Hobbyist 10 miles away from here, wanted to order from "Wholesaler X", DBA as "Direct to Hobbyist", they would advise the buyer that they would be unable to sell directly but they would be pleased to have my store order the item for them, for local pickup.

I think this is and was an excellent way to capitalize on the best of both worlds - open up a new market for Wholesaler X, but still keep the B&Ms that supported the wholesaler every week, happy. Wholesaler X could sell to Jane Reefkeeper in the middle of nowhere, but not cut me out of the deal with my own customers.

I don't know if that entity still operates this way or not - but at the time I thought it was a most reasonable compromise.

I concur that DFS is a big marketing machine, and in the spirit of trying to be politically correct, I do think that some of the claims made are somewhat lofty.

I have to ask myself - are consumers *really* as gullible as all that to believe it all? We here in this forum and in this industry can look at all that fluffy advertising and make our own conclusions - and I'd like to think that many consumers are clever enough to see the same. Like I posted earlier - I showed the latest spin on DFS website, to my friend/customer who is new to the hobby. She'd never heard of DFS (woohoo!) and when she read the link, she saw it for the stuff and nonsense that she believes it is (without my influence - I simply asked her to read it and tell me what she thought, without prejudice). I can't help but think that she's more typical of most consumers.

Jenn

 

[Hobbyist]

Hello all. I have got to believe that there are many, many hobbyists and industry folks lurking in on these recent discussions. I usually don't post much on any of the reef/aquarium forums just to help reduce the noise level. However, I have decided that I would like to interject my opinions and ideas and my perspectives on some of these issues.

First, I would find it hard to take a definite side in any of the recent arguments as I believe that all sides have probably over dramatized the various positions and statements of each side. Race is obviously one passionate madman.

I am an avid supporter of one of the local B&M. The B&M is generally an avid supporter of one wholesaler (SDC) largely because of the cooperation, perceived quality and customer service offered to the B&M. I believe that B&M have been done wrong, but mainly not by livestock wholesalers, but by drygoods wholesalers. I don't think B&M are going away soon, but change is necessary. But thats a discussion for another thread.

I also believe there is a place for DRF&S for many reasons as well that I can explain else where in the appropriate threads. I only want to discuss part of it here.

From my perspective, as a hobbyist, and all of those hobbyists I know and have talked to, the advantage of DRF&S is primarily two fold: First, they offer fish that our local B&M will not order and secondly, our B&M will not and cannot guarantee for 14 days. The price of the offerings is a distant third consideration.

While I am sure that DRF&S is stretching their quality claims in a marketing effort, I would imagine that they do have and do take an interest in the overall quality of the livestock they have dropshipped. Beyond that sentiment, I really don't care what the exact language is as I am looking at availabilty and a 14 day guarantee.

While I really don't think my small market B&M can ever find a way to compete with the advantages of DRF&S, I certainly think that the big market B&M can better address the perceived advantage of DRF&S.

I spend several days a month in Atlanta. I hit the two big stores in the Marietta area and the big Buckhead area store. In my opinion they do a very poor job of trying to compete. I have spent some very serious dollars with one of these stores. This store absolutely refuses to discuss with me their preffered wholesaler or share with me availability lists on a weekly basis. I don't want to know his prices. This is such a huge mistake in my opinion, it costs him tons of business. To me the biggest sign in any B&M near the livestock area should be "If you don't see it ask. We can get anything as fast as anybody else." If the store will not share with me the livestock available to him or make it known that anything was available, those pretty DRF&S pictures become so much more enticing.

Phil