The Irony

[Anonymous]

Offerring a guarantee basicly implies somthing may be wrong with your fish and here's a way to appease the loss when it does happen. Your fish/livestock should stand on it's quality, not the "cut flower"..."ah, I can get another one, that's ok" guarantee. Just my opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

internet hickup

 

[JennM]

Interesting post, Hobbyist - and a good deal of food for thought.

Jenn

 

[Hobbyist]

GreshamH, thats one way of looking at it. I do not believe that is the reality of the situation based upon my experiences and those of others I know.

If one or more of the well respected members of any of the hobbyist forums bought a fish from DRF&S and that/those fish died and maybe their replacements died, yes DRF&S would gain that reputation.

What is actually happening is that the perception is that the fish generally are doing well. I am a prime example. I looked for Bimaculatus Anthias for a long time on SDC lists. They weren't there. Lo and Behold several of the (respected) members of RC bought Bimaculatus anthias from DRF&S. They did well, so I bought four of them. Mine are doing great, no guarantee needed. Now irregardless of reality, there is a perception of quality and availability.

Those are the only fish I have purchased from DRF&S. I have been successful at getting all of my other high end fish from my B&M. But you can see how perception is formed. Read the threads, perception is reality until otherwise proven.

Every one of the B&M that care know what the competition is. The way to succeed is to figure out how to better serve the customers and to use their purchasing power to attempt to level the field. Again, the answer in my very humble opinon is not to continue to attack DRF&S as if you can make them go away. That is not going to happen. Yeah, vent some steam but use this forum to help organize a plan and to help remove the horrible reputation that some B&M have. Thats what fosters the increasing popularity of e-tailers.

 

[Anonymous]

From being an avid reader of the "vendor forum" over on RC, I'vem seen bout 30 L.A. threads this year, oh and some on their own RC sponsor forum. Some are great, others speak of 2 or 3 shipments of dead fish. Heck, Race even took credit for one shipment that caused 2 bad shipments. Dunno how the third went, it lands friday for the customer.

My point is, if your fish are inspected by a vet, handled by the best handling baggers in the US, why guarantee them at all? They should walk on water, never float.

 

[Anonymous]

From being an avid reader of the "vendor forum" over on RC, I'vem seen bout 30 L.A. threads this year, oh and some on their own RC sponsor forum. Some are great, others speak of 2 or 3 shipments of dead fish. Heck, Race even took credit for one shipment that caused 2 bad shipments. Dunno how the third went, it lands friday for the customer.

My point is, if your fish are inspected by a vet, handled by the best handling baggers in the US, why guarantee them at all? They should walk on water, never float.

That leads to another question, Gresham. If B&M fish are as good or better than those from etailers why don't the B&M's offer a 14 day stay alive guarantee?

 

[Anonymous]

Why encourage the cut flower mentality with your customers. Instead, one should foster the idea that these are living animals and we should do EVERYTHING in our capacity to care for them and make sure they don't flipping die in under 14 days :roll:

 

[Rascal]

The 14 day guarantee is part of the numbers game. That's all it is, but without it their marketing plan fails.

Stores have overhead. It's not a mass marketing scheme for us. And we are also cognizant of the fact livestock can die for many different reasons...most of which are out of our control once that fish leaves the store

 

[Anonymous]

Why encourage the cut flower mentality with your customers. Instead, one should foster the idea that these are living animals and we should do EVERYTHING in our capacity to care for them and make sure they don't flipping die in under 14 days :roll:

To me a short term guarentee can indicate that the seller isn't selling second rate livestock. I don't see how a guarentee is contrary to fostering the idea that our livestock are living animals that deserve 1st rate care.

 

[JennM]

That leads to another question, Gresham. If B&M fish are as good or better than those from etailers why don't the B&M's offer a 14 day stay alive guarantee?

I'm not Gresham and I don't play him on TV, but as a B&M I feel qualified to answer this question.

Once the animal leaves *our* care, custody and control, we can assume no liability for its survival. Maybe a large volume drop shipper with lower overhead can afford to eat those losses even due to hobbyist error or ignorance, but I can't. Rather, I try to educate the consumer FIRST, test their water FIRST, and only sell what I'd put in my own tank FIRST.

I have a 24 hour guarantee and I can probably count on one hand the amount of times in 2 years that somebody's made a claim on it - coming back with dead fish for my inspection, and a water sample to make sure that their water quality is in order. Once in a great while something crashes on a good customer without explanation and I usually do what I can to take care of them on that - I have discretion in those matters, and common sense and good business are my guides.

I can't afford to replace a fish if the customer who bought it had ammonia and nitrite in their tank - so I take steps to make sure that I'm not selling to somebody with putrid water.

The guarantee is as much a numbers game as it is standing behind one's product. Drop Shipper F has no way of knowing if the customer buying his product even has a saltwater tank - and believe it or not I've had people pick out fish, and if I get a sense that they don't know what they're doing, I'll ask questions. One day my business partner bagged up 6 turbo snails for somebody, and when she got to the checkout I did ask her in a tactful way if she had a saltwater tank - she didn't.

I can't afford to guarantee against ignorance. Perhaps others can.

Jenn

 

[JennM]

GMTA, Rascal - you and I must have been typing the same thought at the same time

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Having worked retail side myself for many years, and wholesale for triple those retail years, I can say IMHO if a fish is going to die, it usually (on average) happens with the first 3 days.

 

[JennM]

Oh and another thought... I wonder how many fish die 5 days in, 10 days in, 13 days into that "guarantee"? Probably very few, and only if hobbyist error or ignorance comes into play.

If a fish is going to "drop dead" for no apparant reason, they usually do it in the first 24 hours anyway, and that's often due to shipping stress. I don't care what kind of kid gloves one wears, some fish just don't travel well, period. After that, if it is going to drop dead, there's usually an obvious cause. Start by testing the water and proceed from there.

And how many hobbyists quarantine? Very few in my experience, and most of the ones who do, learned the hard way.

Jenn

 

[pk1]

As a hobbyist, I have to agree with SciGuy2. A warranty may be "part of the numbers game", but it's a numbers game that is working for the company and the customer, and only "part" of that game. IMO a warranty does not imply the part is sub standard. In fact, I sell warranties at my company as part of the product I sell...and I assure you I would not stay in business selling a bad product, using just the warranty as the selling point. I offer the warranty because I know my product is good, and I don't expect my customers to just take my word for it...as I believe Gresham is implying?? If I am understanding correctly? The company in question is standing behind it's quality, by offering the warranty.

Patrick Kelly

 

[Anonymous]

Having worked retail side myself for many years, and wholesale for triple those retail years, I can say IMHO if a fish is going to die, it usually (on average) happens with the first 3 days.

So did you hold and observe the fish for 3 days prior to putting them up for sale?

 

[JennM]

As a hobbyist, I have to agree with SciGuy2. A warranty may be "part of the numbers game", but it's a numbers game that is working for the company and the customer, and only "part" of that game. IMO a warranty does not imply the part is sub standard. In fact, I sell warranties at my company as part of the product I sell...and I assure you I would not stay in business selling a bad product, using just the warranty as the selling point. I offer the warranty because I know my product is good, and I don't expect my customers to just take my word for it...as I believe Gresham is implying?? If I am understanding correctly? The company in question is standing behind it's quality, by offering the warranty.

Patrick Kelly

For clarity, Patrick, do you then believe that F&S fish are somehow better than mine, simply because they offer a better warranty? If so, how so?

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

I have a 24 hour guarantee and I can probably count on one hand the amount of times in 2 years that somebody's made a claim on it...

If a fish is going to "drop dead" for no apparant reason, they usually do it in the first 24 hours anyway, and that's often due to shipping stress. I don't care what kind of kid gloves one wears, some fish just don't travel well, period. After that, if it is going to drop dead, there's usually an obvious cause. Start by testing the water and proceed from there.

Sounds like you are saying that a 14 day guarantee really wouldn't cost much for a good B&M. If your 24 hr warranty has only had a handful of claims in 2 yrs, and most fish that would die within 14 days do so within the first 24 hrs...

And how many hobbyists quarantine? Very few in my experience, and most of the ones who do, learned the hard way.

Not to be a bugger, but how many B&M's, etailers, wholesalers, etc. quarantine fish, or otherwise hold their fish for an observation period prior to sale?

 

[Rascal]

Years ago I had a customer who got a clown grouper from my store. I bagged the fish. As he was leaving, another of my customers was coming into the store. After 30 minutes or so I received a phonecall from the first customer notifying me that his fish had died in the bag on the way home. I told him to bring it back, and I would refund his money. I hung up the phone, and then mentioned something to the second customer (a regular). He was nice enough to let me know that customer #1 had dropped the bag with his fish in it out in the parking lot.

That's why I don't warranty fish.

Now, don't think it's black or white. I'll hold a fish here at the store for a client for just about forever. Maybe they are waiting for their tank to cycle, or whatever. I've got probably 8 fish on hold for various clients right now.

 

[Rascal]

I absolutely quarantine my fish. We hold them for 2 days prior to selling. I feed my fish. I treat my fish when necessary.

 

[Anonymous]

I absolutely quarantine my fish. We hold them for 2 days prior to selling. I feed my fish. I treat my fish when necessary.