AMDA response to Race Foster

[Len]

STR, Make absolutely sure that you can verify your serious accusations.

For the record, I know Kevin Kohen does see and inspect some (not sure how much) livestock that leaves his facility, so I question the accuracy of your statements and/or frown upon your careless choices of words.

 

[danieldm]

SavetheReefs-

As part of the grass roots effort, you could also start your own marketing campaign citing the benefits of B&M versus e tailers. Since the F&S stuff is in the public domain, you could also do open letters to the magazines, fish clubs, etc. in responce to their claims, and also highlight how they actually do business.

 

[danieldm]

Len-

I agree with your last post. The thing is though, in the article by Race at http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/gene ... pagesid=61 he states that

"The individuals we have selecting fish for LiveAquaria.com are among the most experienced fish experts in the country. They have spent their entire careers in this arena, and have seen hundreds of thousands of fish across every species. They know exactly what to look for, can recognize even the most subtle differences between fish, and they know what our standard for quality is, often passing up a fish others are happy to sell."

How can he include the minimum wage order pullers/baggers at the various whoelsalers they pull from in that statement. He doesn't know who's pulling a particluar fish.

So yes, some of their fish may be getting a close scrutiny by an experiencd eye, but a large percentage are not getting anywhere near the "among the most experienced fish experts in the country" treatment that he claims all their fish pass through. Which would include most of everything being drop shipped out of California.

 

[Rascal]

Daniel - Thanks for the constructive post. Count me as one of the first five. With a show of :!: , who else is in?

 

[dizzy]

Daniel,
Race and Kevin Kohen called me this morning and explained how it all worked. The guys that work for O2O are very experienced and they do select the best livestock available for F&S orders. Race said that he believes 10% of all the marine fish that come into LA are purchased by F&S. I don't believe he is being dishonest. He said they only get the same percentage of cherry items like black tangs, as the percentage of total sales that they buy. They were willing to answer any questions I had.
Mitch

 

[SavetheReefs]

Len are you kidding me?

For the record, I know Kevin Kohen does see and inspect some (not sure how much) livestock that leaves his facility

What facility are you talking about??????????

Wisconsin??????????

The only thing that is coming out of there is what they are pawning off as aquacultured (and CC and DD) and I was being nice by saying it might be 10% of their sales.

And here are more lies

We are proud to offer one of the largest selections of captive-bred and aquacultured aquatic life. We seek out fish, corals and invertebrates from aquaculture facilities, breeders and hatcheries in the United States, Asia, and Europe to provide a viable alternative to wild caught fish to minimize the impact on our valuable natural resources.

Let me go through the site and count how much aquacultured stuff they are selling........BRB

WOW 3 tank raised fish, and lets not mention that these fish belong well exceed over 1' in length and need huge tanks.

What a second.....................I cant stop laughing..................foster and smith are so concerned about the environment that every captive bred fish species they sell, they offer the same fish wild caught..............Oh yeah they really care.

Maybe foster will come on here and tell us why he would do such a thing????? Either you sell a captive bred false perc or you sell a wild caught false perc.

But not both....................lol

More to come.

SavetheReefs

 

[danieldm]

Mitch-

Maybe they can back up their claims, but their claims are done in a positive / negative contaxt. They post ONLY their business in a positive light as being the experts, and the post the B&M in a negative light. Sure they post an "out" at the very end of the article and sort of state that not every B&M is bad. The problem is that in Market research, the vast majority of people reading an article like that never get to the end of it...that's why they put a disclaimer there. All they get is F&S great, B&M evil.

 

[Makin'Waves1]

Not new to this forum, as I used to go by the handle MILPIL. Have been reading with interest on the whole e-tail B&M argument, and can agree about the whole order fulfillment process, however, this is the model that only SOME of the e-tailers use. Back in the day Flying Fish Express pre-Miller, was top notch and we all saw each and every fish and invert that was leaving the warehouse. We combed the various wholesalers in L.A. and stocked a bunch at the Warehouse as well. This shows that some of the costs that B&M's absorb yearly, is absorbed by some of the e-tailers. As for minimum wage pay, good luck on that one. If you are an e-tailer and you wish to hire EXPERIENCED packers, you are commonly paying a premium of between $10-$15 an hour. No such thing as minimum wage out here. The ONLY problem I have with Race, is that he claims that veteriniarians check each and every fish. Come on now, I have been in this biz for a VERY long time and have yet to see a fish vet at any of the wholesalers, not to mention I know ALL of the people on 104th and they are definitely not in the medical profession. Before damning the e-tail trade, you should look at what practices the individual store is doing i.e. information on the products and livestock. What shipping methods are offered and suggested. Whether or not the business stocks any of it's own merchandise or just drop ships etc. JMO. :wink:

 

[dizzy]

I wonder (out loud) if this type of thing falls within the existing AMDA's mandate? I'm not a member of AMDA, but would consider being one if this type of thing was implemented, and I could commit some time to helping - although I don't have the means to spearhead the effort.

Perhaps Mitch or another current AMDA member could chime in on this?

Jenn

Jenn I think it just might. The current AMDA BOD seems most interested in ways of leveling the playing field. It's only $50 a year to join.
Mitch

 

[dizzy]

Gone, gone, gone :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Makin Waves, that's been on my mind a lot lately. Just like not ALL B&M places are bad, neither are all etail places. There are many more etail places that house their own livestock inventory than drop ship from the wholesalers. I can't stand seeing people like AMDA bod members and the like saying that all etailer drop ship, none have overhead, blah blah blah. That's ridiculous.

Second, save the reefs, the more you post the more I am finding it hard to take you seriously. A bit of advice, calm down a little bit. I know you have an axe to grind, but keep it mellow! When you start ranting like a fanatic I put as much stock in what you're saying as I do a die hard PETA member.

Finally, isn't there something that can be done about this false advertising? It doesn't take a doctorate to figure out that the claims F&S are making are a little far fetched. No one would stand for this type of behavior if some other large, well known retail operation (read department, grocery stores, etc etc) were making blatanly false claims. Surely there must be some sort of fair marketing laws that are being breached somewhere no?

 

[dizzy]

Thanks Makin Waves, that's been on my mind a lot lately. Just like not ALL B&M places are bad, neither are all etail places. There are many more etail places that house their own livestock inventory than drop ship from the wholesalers. I can't stand seeing people like AMDA bod members and the like saying that all etailer drop ship, none have overhead, blah blah blah. That's ridiculous.

That's a blatantly false statement you just made JP. Please show us where someone said all etailers dropship.
Mitch

 

[danieldm]

JP-

Sorry if I lumped all etailers in with the drop shipping cartel. I know several etailers that care just as much for their fish as any B&M I've ever been in. What's at issue here is that most of them are at least near the same playing field as the B&M gang. It's the F&S, the MD, etc. that the wholesalers are allowing to cherry pick and drop ship for on a daily basis.

When I was doing the etailer thing, we daily jobbed several of the largest wholesalers in the LA area...and everyone of them swore publicly that they didn't allow cherry pickers or mail order though their doors. One even allowed us in after hours to take pictures of fish, coral, etc. to use as marketing images on our web site.

Mitch-
I'm sure that Kevin & Race are capable of spinning their business in a very positive light. The fact remains though that even though they may be setup just as they told you they are, they are still making claims on their site that go way beyond that arrangement. Race also made some fairly outlandish statements here on RDO.

 

[dizzy]

Look Daniel,
I not going to take for for Race and Kevin too much. They take business from me all the time. I get people coming in with their catalog asking us to match prices and such. I sometimes see their ads on the local cable programs. And just this week they a had coupon in the local Smartsavers newspaper insert. It's just business in America as far as I can tell. I don't think they are breaking any laws.
Mitch

 

[SavetheReefs]

Let me just throw something out there. Here is my question.

If you or a family member had a heart problem, what person would you seek medical help from?

1-Brain Surgeon
2-Nuero Surgeon
3-OBGYN
4-Podiatrist
5-Chiropractor
6-Dentist
7-Orthopedic Surgeon
8-Caridologist

So why does foster and smith who have little to no professional training with aquatic animals think that they are experts and post all over the place that they are vets in an effort for smoke and mirrors???????

After all read their bios and you will not find a single mention of FISH AQUARIUM AQUATIC MARINE REEF or anything else related to this hobby.

If there were more hours in the day I might really take a stand against the dynamic duo!

STR

 

[Anonymous]

:roll: Good Lord. I didn't put it in quotation marks so I didn't think it would be meant as a word for word. But since you're asking, and making your own accusations....

The following is from the president of the AMDA regarding E tailers...

They want to cherry pick a few nice fish that cost a lot of money that they don't even own to sell to their customers...

False.

E Commerce didn't even have to pay for owning them to start with.

Here's where my post came from. If E commerce didn't have to own the fish to begin with....they got it drop shipped right? Yeah. FALSE

They sell the expensive fish they don't have to house, quarantine, or show customers that they feed before they buy them.

Again, etailers sell the fish but they don't have to house them, quarantine them, or show that they feed.....survey says? They MUST be dropshipping them then right? Yeah.

So much for my blatantly false statements right? :roll:

 

[SavetheReefs]

Race also made some fairly outlandish statements here on RDO.

You better watch it Daniel, foster works with dog and cat breeders and smith has champion english setters.

STR

 

[JennM]

Look Daniel,
I not going to take for for Race and Kevin too much. They take business from me all the time. I get people coming in with their catalog asking us to match prices and such. I sometimes see their ads on the local cable programs. And just this week they a had coupon in the local Smartsavers newspaper insert. It's just business in America as far as I can tell. I don't think they are breaking any laws.
Mitch

A friend of mine who left the manufacturing end of the fish biz recently, told me a great story.

His mother owned a pet store (full line, I think). Every so often, somebody would come in asking for a price match from a mail order entity...

She was happy to oblige. She'd match the price of the item, then add shipping. Once the customer had paid for the item, all smug because he/she had scored such a good deal, she'd bag up the item and place it behind the counter.

The puzzled customer would then look at her, wondering why she'd taken away their item. She'd simply tell them that they could pick it up in 2-3 days - just like Priority Mail. OH? Want it sooner? Well that's extra for priority overnight... another $10 and you can pick it up tomorrow. Then she'd walk away.

He told me that she easily made her point. I'd love to try this... but honestly I've never really had anybody have the cajones to ask me to match etail pricing.

I about died laughing when I heard this story, and my friend swears it's true. If his mother has as much chutzpah as he does, I absolutely believe it to be true

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

Sorry JP I guess your right. Well I certainly never made such a statement and I thought you were implying I did. I read Burton's letter and never even noticed that stuff. Funny how it reads different to different people. So sorry once again.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Appreciated.